# Trump has declared war on the GOP, Paul Ryan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 11, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245 "2016-10-11T15:19:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/101 "2016-10-12T01:09:12Z")
😛 ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/102 "2016-10-12T01:13:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Fox News didn’t exist in 1964. But, yeah. Still, the Republicans and Fox News are only half the story. The other half of the story are the people who let it happen to them. I don’t excuse them. Nor do I. But propaganda is a powerful thing – as we are currently witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/103 "2016-10-12T01:43:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s responsible in the sense that for year the Tea Party has encouraged upstarts and sneered at establishment Republicans and pooh-poohed the idea that political experience is a virtue for a politician; it’s encouraged a populism with (and here I’m straying from the article) a significant anti-immigrant and white supremacist undertone, an undertone Trump has turned into an overtone. This split seemed inevitable when the Tea Party was welcomed into the Republican fold in 2010 but not assimilated, while no huge changes were made to the Republican plank. You saw it in 2012 when most of the Republican candidates who were more in the Tea Party mold or who could have bridged the gap had their turn on top before flaming out and the focus turning very reluctantly to Mitt Romney, the establishment’s favorite. [QUOTE=asahi] Yep, I’m frankly tired of hearing about how mainstream democrats abandoned the working class – they didn’t. [/QUOTE] Outside of Iowa, over the past 40 or so years, Democrats have been more and more focused on urban populations and urban issues and less so on rural populations and rural issues. Particularly given the big increase in urban (and then suburban) population during that time. So, I would bet that any working class populations that do feel abandoned by the Democratic party as a whole are more likely living in someplace more rural and less urban, like Chilton County, Alabama as opposed to Arlington County, Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/104 "2016-10-12T01:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > So, I would bet that any working class populations that do feel abandoned by the Democratic party as a whole are more likely living in someplace more rural and less urban, like Chilton County, Alabama as opposed to Arlington County, Virginia. As someone in rural Alabama, race, niggers getting welfare, abortion, the war on Christianity, and gays getting married are the issues most frequently brought up. Only other things that ever get mentioned very often are manufacturing jobs going overseas/NAFTA and health insurance prices going up. ---
**Author:** ![Skinnybones\_Lampshade](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skinnybones_lampshade/32/2872_2.png) [@Skinnybones\_Lampshade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skinnybones_Lampshade)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/105 "2016-10-12T01:56:45Z")
Did you think it would come off as sarcastic, or were you using it in earnest? In either case, it was very misguided, at best. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/106 "2016-10-12T02:00:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The fear I have is that the next time toxic populism is expressed, it will be by someone who is less of an obvious clown and troll than Trump. Such a person has a shot … I’ve started to see followers of his on twitter painting their opponents as globalists and attacking globalism. It’s an interesting, and late to affect this cycle, take on reaching across the left-right divide to populist notions that were in the Sanders campaign. Whether someone could thread the needle on the other issues to unite the populist chunks from both sides is a tricky question. Still both parties had a candidate who professed strong populist sentiment get 40-ish percent of the vote. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/107 "2016-10-12T02:10:54Z")
I don’t think that **Tzigone** was using that word; I think he was mentioning it. As in, when the rural Alabamans around him discuss politics, that’s the word they use. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/108 "2016-10-12T02:18:24Z")
Maybe Trump fears losing bigly to Hillary and wants to at least say that he was able to take someone from the GOP down with him – a twisted consolation prize. ---
**Author:** ![Skinnybones\_Lampshade](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skinnybones_lampshade/32/2872_2.png) [@Skinnybones\_Lampshade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skinnybones_Lampshade)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/109 "2016-10-12T02:22:53Z")
If you are familiar with **Tsigone** as a poster, and know them not to be someone who would countenance such a remark, then I’m relieved to accept what you’re saying. It would have been clearer if the offensive word had been set off with quotation marks, or otherwise had been marked with some indication that the writer distanced him/herself from the remark (e.g. “n\*\*\*\*\*\*\*”, “the n-word”, “in their words”, etc.). Thank you for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/110 "2016-10-12T02:59:34Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > over the past 40 or so years, Democrats have been more and more focused on urban populations and urban issues and less so on rural populations “More and more focused on urban …” means “doing anything at all for black people.” There’s no rationality at all in it. Ultimately, the policies that will benefit urban people will benefit everyone. So there’s no real urban-rural divide on a rational policy basis. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/111 "2016-10-12T03:56:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Sorry, but absolutely no. They are called the **Progressive** Amendments. . . . Oops; you are quite right. I mixed up the two terms. Sorry. (Thank you for correcting me gently and politely.) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/112 "2016-10-12T06:53:55Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Status quo ante: the relative normalcy that existed prior to Obama’s election, the creation of the Tea Party, and subsequent sucking-up by the GOP establishment. You mean “Contract on America”, the impeachment of Bill Clinton, and the Bush administration Congress that rubber stamped his massive tax cuts and the Iraq War? We don’t need a “return to normalcy”, we need to take advantage of Trump’s destabilization of the Republican Party-a God-given opening if there ever was one-to blow up the existing political equilibrium and replace it with something much more to our advantage. > [@quimper](#): > > Can you point to some non-toxic examples then? I’m drawing a blank (seriously). Huey Long. George Norris. Burton K. Wheeler. Robert LaFollette. In fact it’d be more useful to list the toxic forms of populism. > [@asahi](#): > > If Trump merely loses the election in an obvious landslide and calls it a night, then we’re still left with a market for toxic populism. Their frustration won’t go away, and if anything they will feel even more embittered by the perception that elites unified to mute their voices. These people might seem deluded to us but they actually truly believe that they have a chance to win back their America – Trump represents that dream. These are the same forces that fueled the anti-civil rights movements of the 1960s and the Jim Crow era in the aftermath of the 1870s Reconstruction period, movements based on the notion that their America, their status and standing in society are under attack and that '_someone needs to do somethin’ about it’_. It’s quite historically inaccurate to call the “Redeemer” movements of the 1870s as “populist” considering they were led by the Bourbon Democrat planter elites seeking to restore the status quo of oligarchic white supremacy of the antebellum period. In fact, while this is not very well remembered, many Southern states imposed voting restrictions on poor whites as well as blacks precisely in order to prevent a resurgence of crossracial populist movement that posed the last serious challenge to the Jim Crow order in the 1880s and 1890s. Even among the segregationist candidates during the civil rights revolution, Kevin Philips documents that the more explicitly segregationist candidate Strom Thurmond did best among the urban white middle-class in cities like Memphis and lost in the rural hinterlands. While it was a different story with Wallace, he ran on a broader right-wing populist platform that included among other things opposition to the Vietnam War. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Sorry, but absolutely no. They are called the **Progressive** Amendments. > > The Progressives and the Populists were two very different movements. They often get confused, but all the reforms we take for granted today were pushed by the Progressives, not the Populists. While its important to distinguish between the Populists and Progressives, we should also not draw a false dichotomy when there is none. Populist movements supported reforms such as the income tax, direct election of Senators, regulation of big business, and the like much as the Progressives did and the political offspring of these Populists made sure these reforms got implemented in rural states (such as the Upper Midwest or the Great Plains) in coalition with their urban Progressive allies. While Populists had some wacky economic ideas and perhaps overly agrarian in their tendencies, it is good we did not permanently accept all of the ideas of the Progressives which included alcohol prohibition, eugenics, and the restriction of immigration to reinforce “Nordic” WASP supremacy. > [@asahi](#): > > Yep, I’m frankly tired of hearing about how mainstream democrats abandoned the working class – they didn’t. They were put into minority status by people who at the time were part of a stronger (white) middle class and decided that going on taxpayer funded panty raids and turning vaginas into crime scenes was more important than electing people who could fight for labor and the middle class. Why can’t it be a two-way street? It’s true elements of the WWC abandoned the Democrats due to racial resentment but its also true Democrats ended up emphasizing bread and butter issues less in favour of Culture War issues like guns and abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/113 "2016-10-12T07:18:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As for this, despite loathing Trump and everything he stands for, the one thing he’s gotten right is also what Sanders got right: he tapped into the real and legitimate anger of the working poor in a way that Democrats haven’t done in decades, and Republicans haven’t done in longer (arguably Reagan did, but his union-busting renders that a pretty controversial claim). You forgot the word “white.” Trump tapped into the anger of the white working poor. His candidacy has somehow not really appealed to the large minority of working class voters who are not white. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/114 "2016-10-12T14:44:18Z")
> [@Skinnybones\_Lampshade](#): > > Did you think it would come off as sarcastic, or were you using it in earnest? > > In either case, it was very misguided, at best. I used because that’s what the people around me say when in an all white group that they think thinks like them (not at work, but around second cousins and neighbors and so on). > [@](#): > > It would have been clearer if the offensive word had been set off with quotation marks, or otherwise had been marked with some indication that the writer distanced him/herself from the remark (e.g. “n\*\*\*\*\*\*\*”, “the n-word”, “in their words”, etc.). Sorry, I thought I was clear, but that often happens - you think other people know what you mean and don’t clarify. I could have asterisked out not to offend, but as I wasn’t speaking in “my voice” it didn’t really occur to me. Plus when I think about it, I don’t really like doing that, as it dilutes the impact of what’s actually being said. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/115 "2016-10-12T14:45:11Z")
**Qin** , perhaps I’m misreading you, but did you just cite Huey Long as an example of _non_toxic populism? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/116 "2016-10-12T14:57:21Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > I used because that’s what the people around me say when in an all white group that they think thinks like them (not at work, but around second cousins and neighbors and so on). > > Sorry, I thought I was clear, but that often happens - you think other people know what you mean and don’t clarify. I could have asterisked out not to offend, but as I wasn’t speaking in “my voice” it didn’t really occur to me. Plus when I think about it, I don’t really like doing that, as it dilutes the impact of what’s actually being said. Quote marks on the phrase would have worked, IMO. I am not onboard with turning it into an absolutely “unprintable/unspeakable” thing when it is clear we are reflecting how other people use it. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/117 "2016-10-12T15:08:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You mean “Contract on America”, the impeachment of Bill Clinton, and the Bush administration Congress that rubber stamped his massive tax cuts and the Iraq War? We don’t need a “return to normalcy”, we need to take advantage of Trump’s destabilization of the Republican Party-a God-given opening if there ever was one-to blow up the existing political equilibrium and replace it with something much more to our advantage. You’re absolutely right – I need to mentally turn back the clock farther, to get to a time when the minority and majority worked together, a little. You also helped pinpoint the single individual most responsible for the current sorry state of polarization and gridlock: Newt Gingrich. That evil asshole has a lot to answer for. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/118 "2016-10-12T15:17:19Z")
Many on this board complained that HRC was separating “toxic” Republicans from the “others”, especially during the convention and the weeks after. [Your wish is now granted](https://newrepublic.com/article/137729/hillary-clinton-panicked-republicans-youre). > [@](#): > > The goal was quite explicitly to reach Republican voters horrified by Trump but uneasy about supporting a Democrat, and lower a ladder for them. By creating a temporary alliance with anti-Trump Republicans, they could put together a maximal coalition, to combat a maximal threat. > > That never really came to pass. Trump has shed support among college-educated whites, but in the weeks after the convention the race tightened much more than Clinton expected, and the mass GOP defections she hoped for didn’t materialize. Until, of course, the emergence on Friday of a horrifying videotape in which Trump brags about committing sexual assault with impunity. Suddenly, dozens of Republicans understand the value of creating distance between themselves and Trump. **The problem for them is that just as they’ve decided they want as little to do with Trump as possible, Clinton and her allies have decided to pull up the ladder and leave them stranded.** ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/119 "2016-10-12T20:24:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Qin** , perhaps I’m misreading you, but did you just cite Huey Long as an example of _non_toxic populism? Yes, considering on balance Long was a constructive politician whose policies immensely benefited the people of Louisiana unless we are willing to conclude that (for example) FDR was a “toxic” politician due to his toleration for Southern segregationism, interment of Japanese-Americans, and allowing the USSR to occupy Eastern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245/120 "2016-10-12T20:45:57Z")
[North Carolina’s Populist Party](http://ncpedia.org/populist-party) is a fascinating historical organization. Most state politics at the time were dominated by avowed white supremacists, including major factions within the Populist Party. However, it was also within the Populist Party that the strongest efforts toward ending white supremacy occurred, as poor whites and poor blacks allied against moneyed interests. To give full credit where it’s due, the NC Republican party at the time was also relatively anti-racist, and it was the Populist alliance with the Republicans that led to their successes. If only the modern fusion between Republicans and Populists were as benign… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-has-declared-war-on-the-gop-paul-ryan/768245.md?page=7)