# Trump having trouble finding lawyer **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 20, 2022, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975 "2022-08-20T01:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/41 "2022-08-22T21:19:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Note: A fee contingent on the outcome is not permitted in criminal cases. (In jurisdictions I’m aware of, maybe there are exceptions), so it would have to be an hourly fee or a flat fee. That’s my understanding as well. So yes, in theory if Trump puts up 15 million in cash, it would go into a special trust fund operated by the lawyer, who can only withdraw money to pay for work after it’s done on the file. At least, that’s the system I’m used to. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/42 "2022-08-22T21:26:07Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So yes, in theory if Trump puts up 15 million in cash, it would go into a special trust fund operated by the lawyer, who can only withdraw money to pay for work after it’s done on the file. At least, that’s the system I’m used to. Yes, if the lawyer is charging hourly, and gets a big retainer it goes into trust account and payments are taken out as work is done. If it’s a flat fee, it does not go into the trust account. We also had a hybrid system, with a series of flat fees. For example, $2,000 minimum for appearing and possible plea negotiations, additional $2,500 for suppression hearing. Additional. $5,000 for jury trial. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/43 "2022-08-22T21:46:02Z")
That sounds surprisingly low. I thought felony trials usually run into six figures? Anyhow, on an hourly basis, could a lawyer charge Trump something like $10,000 per hour, or are lawyers not allowed to discriminate that greatly in terms of hourly rates for different clients? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/44 "2022-08-22T21:50:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That sounds surprisingly low. I thought felony trials usually run into six figures? I was making up numbers, just as an illustration. They were, however, roughly accurate for low level felonies when I did that kind of work (20 + years ago). I think we charged $10,000 to $25,000 for more serious stuff. (I was making about $35,000 per year at that position, for context). > [@Velocity](#): > > Anyhow, on an hourly basis, could a lawyer charge Trump something like $10,000 per hour, or are lawyers not allowed to discriminate that greatly in terms of hourly rates for different clients? There’s no requirement that all clients get charged the same or similar rates. You could certainly charge more to offset the hassle of working for Trump and the damage it might do to your reputation. But, as I said earlier, the bar requires all fees to be “reasonable.” Whatever that means. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/45 "2022-08-22T22:24:19Z")
I saw an interview with one attorney who claimed to have turned Trump down and his reasons were twofold. First, that it would be a full-time job and he didn’t want to do that, and second that it would be impossible to stay out of the politics and stick to the case. I’d imagine that a lot of what Trump wants in a lawyer, at this point, is political theater, but if he’s indicted that might change. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/46 "2022-08-22T23:03:46Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > second that it would be impossible to stay out of the politics and stick to the case. I’d imagine that a lot of what Trump wants in a lawyer, at this point, is political theater That would seem to be borne out by his filing seeking the appointment of a special master to review the materials seized in the search: > [@](#): > > **I. INTRODUCTION** > > Politics cannot be allowed to impact the administration of justice. President Donald J. Trump is the clear frontrunner in the 2024 Republican Presidential Primary and in the 2024 General Election, should he decide to run. Beyond that, his endorsement in the 2022 mid-term elections has been decisive for Republican candidates. On August 8, 2022, in a shockingly aggressive move — and with no understanding of the distress that it would cause most Americans roughly two dozen Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”), directed by attorneys of the U.S. Department of Justice (the “Government”), raided the home of President Donald J. Trump. > According to the Government, the agents seized documents, privileged and/or potentially privileged materials, and other items — including photos, handwritten notes, and even President Trump’s passports — that were outside the lawful reach of an already over broad warrant. President Trump, like all citizens, is protected by the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Property seized in violation of his constitutional rights must be returned forthwith. Campaign advert? or legal filing? We report, you decide. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/47 "2022-08-23T00:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > President Trump, like all citizens, is protected by the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Property seized in violation of his constitutional rights must be returned forthwith. Legal filing, the rest is theater. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/48 "2022-08-23T04:41:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You’d think that, out of the thousands of federal defense attorneys in America, at least 1% of them would ascribe to MAGA-ism. Yes but those attorneys who are so far down the MAGA rabbithole as to not understand what a toxic mess Trump is going to drag them into are probably borderline nuts themselves ie they are lightweights. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/49 "2022-08-25T12:08:46Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > the distress that it would cause most Americans Won’t someone think of the hangovers? The popcorn-binge indigestion? The vocal strain of sustained cacophonous laughter? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/50 "2022-08-25T12:17:29Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > “Fourteen of them have since engaged in additional work in support of the election fraud conspiracies or conspiracists behind Trump’s attempt to remain in power despite losing the election to President Joe Biden. These include defending accused Jan. 6 rioters, consulting for partisan election “audits” or partaking in advocacy or legal cases sowing doubts about the integrity of the nation’s elections, POLITICO found.” It’s like the old rule of who got rich during gold rushes. You don’t get rich prospecting, you get rich selling things to prospectors. The lawyers get paid, win or lose. So long as they don’t do anything criminal themselves, but merely represent their clients, they come out ahead. 90% of lawyers don’t have any kind of “public profile” anyways, so there’s not much to lose. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/51 "2022-08-25T12:17:54Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > the distress that it would cause most Americans > > Won’t someone think of the hangovers? The popcorn-binge indigestion? The vocal strain of sustained cacophonous laughter? - I have lost a great deal of sleep due to the many hours a day I practice my chortling. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/52 "2022-08-25T13:29:41Z")
[Here’s a prospect](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kim-kardashian-beats-hilary-clinton-legal-knowledge-contest) for Trump’s legal Dream Team. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/53 "2022-08-25T14:43:54Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The lawyers get paid, win or lose. Not Trump’s lawyers. They only get paid if they win. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/54 "2022-08-25T14:44:39Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > They only get paid if they win. Assuming they get paid at all. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/55 "2022-08-27T07:36:20Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The lawyers get paid, win or lose. So long as they don’t do anything criminal themselves, but merely represent their clients, they come out ahead. 90% of lawyers don’t have any kind of “public profile” anyways, so there’s not much to lose. Does the average defense attorney particularly care about wins or losses? As long as he does the bare minimum and escorts his client to prison, there’s hardly anything the client can do about it except fume behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/56 "2022-08-27T08:42:54Z")
I think the _average_ defense attorney does care about wins or losses because a consistently losing attorney will not attract many paying clients. High profile defense attorneys get to be high profile because they get wins. Public defenders are a different kettle of fish. I have met one that was motivation by idealism. There are probably others that don’t give a flip. But they’ll get work no matter what their record is as long as they show basic competence and don’t screw up too badly. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/57 "2022-08-27T15:15:14Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The lawyers get paid, win or lose. I don’t know what Internet you’re using, but the one I use regularly carries stories about lawyers being stiffed. I recent high-profile example is Ghislaine Maxwell being [sued](https://www.yahoo.com/news/ghislaine-maxwell-sued-her-lawyers-215847561.html) for $878,000 by her lawyers. One thing the retainer/pay in advance thing doesn’t handle well is what if the legal team burns thru the money during the course of a trial? They can’t just tell the judge “The money’s run out, we’re not going to be in court tomorrow.” And it shouldn’t surprise anyone that a large number of people who find themselves in legal trouble can’t be trusted with their promise to pay up later. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/58 "2022-08-27T15:23:19Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Public defenders are a different kettle of fish. I have met one that was motivation by idealism. There are probably others that don’t give a flip. It’s a very hard job to do if you don’t really give a flip. Losing a lot of trials certainly comes with the job, but you want to do your best, and earn the respect of your colleagues, and the bench. Also, you do want your client to feel he was well represented. If one of my clients was going to prison, I wanted him or her to understand why, and not think they were railroaded. I worked in two public defender offices, and knew people in others. Generally, the staff attorneys were some of the best criminal lawyers in town. Sure, if you have a ton of money you should hire someone privately, but if you don’t, in some jurisdictions, a public defender will be a good option. (I have heard horror stories about places that are exceptions to my experience, and I don’t doubt them for a minute) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/59 "2022-08-27T15:25:28Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I don’t know what Internet you’re using, but the one I use regularly carries stories about lawyers being stiffed. That probably only happens in high profile cases where the lawyer has other motivations for taking the case. In the vast majority of cases, an attorney would get all the money up front before they enter an appearance. As you note, someone charged with a crime isn’t likely to be able to raise money down the road for lawyers if they can’t do it on day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975/60 "2022-08-28T22:05:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think the _average_ defense attorney does care about wins or losses because a consistently losing attorney will not attract many paying clients. High profile defense attorneys get to be high profile because they get wins. Sure, but their win-loss record is not posted publicly; you don’t see websites that say Attorney John Smith has won 89 cases and lost 37. I’ve seen attorneys that spoke glowingly of themselves on their own website (no surprise of course) but then there were reviews that stated that they were totally lazy, do-nothing lawyers. (But anyway, I think I’m derailing the thread.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-having-trouble-finding-lawyer/969975.md?page=4)