# Trump II, The Revenge of the Trump **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 7, 2020, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608 "2020-02-07T23:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/101 "2020-02-12T17:06:53Z")
Didn’t Vindman just get transferred back to the Pentagon? He was scheduled to go the War College. What about the 70 plus others that were hold overs from the Obama Administration in the foreign office? Also everyone leaving the White House after being released from their duties, I believe, would be escorted. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/102 "2020-02-12T17:11:23Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > But now that a sitting president is openly conducting mass retributions – which are a far more obvious and blatant warning against anyone else who might investigate or even criticize him or his cronies – there’s complete silence from Kass. > > Utter IOKIARDI. The right has zero credibility anymore. The credibility train left the station years ago. The new thing we’re seeing now is the publicity. Republicans used to at least hide it when they were breaking laws. Now we have a Republican President who publicly brags about his plans to break the law. Why should he bother hiding it when he commits a crime? The Republican majority in the Supreme Court has said he can’t be charged with a crime and the Republican majority in the Senate has said he can’t be impeached. And Trump has bragged about how his voter base wouldn’t care if he murdered somebody in public. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/103 "2020-02-12T18:40:26Z")
Robert O’Brian assures us all that the Vindmans were not fired, merely removed from their jobs months ahead of schedule. Nothing personal. Just getting rid of all of the career officials. > [@](#): > > O’Brien disputed the notion that the Vindmans were fired, but said that because of the NSC’s small budget, “as we reduce the number of detailees, the percentage of political appointees will increase slightly.” Gotta make sure we only have lackeys that know how to kiss ass on the National Security Council, right? Nothing personal. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/104 "2020-02-12T20:45:03Z")
The Vindman’s were not elected. They have only advisory position. They do NOT make Foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/105 "2020-02-13T14:57:17Z")
Your point being? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/106 "2020-02-13T17:01:01Z")
John Kelly defends Vindman and implies Trump’s actions were illegal: "During an event at Drew University in New Jersey, Kelly said Vindman, who was on Trump’s infamous call with Zelensky, was doing what he had been trained to do as a military officer when he reported Trump’s request that Zelensky investigate Joe Biden to a White House lawyer. Kelly described Trump’s request as an “illegal order.” “We teach them, ‘Don’t follow an illegal order. And if you’re ever given one, you’ll raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order, and then tell your boss,'” the former White House official said, according to the Atlantic." [https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/john-kelly-praises-alexander-vindman-for-refusing-to-follow-trumps-illegal-order](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/john-kelly-praises-alexander-vindman-for-refusing-to-follow-trumps-illegal-order) And not surprisingly, Trump attacks Kelly in a tweet soon after. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/107 "2020-02-13T18:51:49Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > The Vindman’s were not elected. They have only advisory position. They do NOT make Foreign policy. Maybe you should tell that to Robert O’Brien: [‘We are not a banana republic’: National security adviser defends Vindman dismissals](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/11/banana-republic-obrien-vindman-dismissals-114212) > [@](#): > > “We’re not a country where a bunch of lieutenant colonels can get together and decide what the policy is of the United States,” O’Brien said during an event at the Atlantic Council think tank. “We are not a banana republic.” Regarding this quote in particular, perhaps he could remind us which “banana republics” have had lieutenant colonels making policy (rather than, you know, the dictator). ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/108 "2020-02-13T22:19:16Z")
Can the Vindman brothers sue? That could get interesting. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/109 "2020-02-14T00:07:31Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Can the Vindman brothers sue? That could get interesting. IINAL but no would be my answer.their jobs aren’t guaranteed. The military guy was just transferred back to the pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/110 "2020-02-14T00:10:53Z")
> [@Dahnlor](#): > > Maybe you should tell that to Robert O’Brien: > > [‘We are not a banana republic’: National security adviser defends Vindman dismissals](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/11/banana-republic-obrien-vindman-dismissals-114212) > > Regarding this quote in particular, perhaps he could remind us which “banana republics” have had lieutenant colonels making policy (rather than, you know, the dictator). The President is the CIC , he’s their boss. He doesn’t have to ask them anything…actually I believe there is article about foreign policies in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/111 "2020-02-14T14:09:14Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > The President is the CIC , he’s their boss. He doesn’t have to ask them anything…actually I believe there is article about foreign policies in the Constitution. Soldiers following the proper procedure for reporting illegal orders are not “making policy.” ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/112 "2020-02-14T14:14:56Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Soldiers following the proper procedure for reporting illegal orders are not “making policy.” He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/113 "2020-02-14T14:16:11Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others. He admitted that at the hearing. He didn’t say gossiped… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/114 "2020-02-14T14:23:01Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others. At least you accept they were illegal orders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/115 "2020-02-14T14:28:31Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others. This is entirely factually false. [Here is the sequence of events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vindman#National_Security_Council): > [@](#): > > The first event occurred at a July 10 meeting between Ukraine’s then Secretary of National Security and Defense Council Oleksandr Danylyuk, and then US National Security Advisor John Bolton, at which Ambassadors Volker and Sondland, and Energy Secretary Rick Perry were in attendance, and at which Sondland asked Ukraine to launch investigations into the Bidens in order to get a meeting with President Trump. Vindman states that Bolton cut the meeting short, and that both Vindman and Hill told Ambassador Sondland that his comments were inappropriate and reported their concerns to the NSC’s lead counsel. > > \ > > The second event occurred on a July 25 phone call between Presidents Trump and Zelensky. Vindman states, “I was concerned by the call. I did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen, and I was worried about the implications for the U.S. Government’s support of Ukraine. I realized that if Ukraine pursued an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma, it would likely be interpreted as a partisan play which would undoubtedly result in Ukraine losing the bipartisan support it has thus far maintained. This would all undermine U.S. national security.” Vindman also stated that he reported his concern to the NSC’s lead counsel, John Eisenberg. > > Vindman later testified in person before the US House of Representatives on November 19, 2019. In his testimony, Vindman stated that he made a report to an intelligence official about what he heard during Trump’s call with the Ukrainian President and felt what the President mentioned during the phone conversation was “improper.” None of these actions was improper in any sense. On the contrary, these were all the exactly-correct actions for a military officer who believes he has witnessed something that might be illegal by senior officials. He reported what he observed to his superiors, and honestly answered questions about it from Congress. There is not a hint of evidence that Vindman did anything inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/116 "2020-02-14T15:02:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > At least you accept they were illegal orders. Nope I wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/117 "2020-02-14T16:53:52Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > Nope I wasn’t. Then why did you quibble about the reporting lines point? You can’t put the goalposts back and then pretend you hadn’t moved them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/118 "2020-02-14T17:57:10Z")
The DoJ is dropping the case against McCabe. > **[DOJ drops leak case vs. McCabe, judge said White House involvement like a...](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/justice-department-drops-leak-case-against-former-fbi-acting-head-n1137066)** > > The judge, a George W. Bush appointee, said "the fact that you got somebody at the top basically trying to dictate whether somebody should be prosecuted" was like a "banana republic." I wonder if this is Barr’s way of telling Trump to shut his ass up. He (and Pence) might be one of the very few who’s in a position to tell Trump to shove it. The danger is that Trump doesn’t realize it and fires Barr in an escalating ego war, but if Trump does that, he’d end up with a temporary acting AG, which is what he had in Matt Whitaker. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/119 "2020-02-14T19:26:55Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The DoJ is dropping the case against McCabe. > > [https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/justice-department-drops-leak-case-against-former-fbi-acting-head-n1137066](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/justice-department-drops-leak-case-against-former-fbi-acting-head-n1137066) The other story not getting as much notice is that Barr has also appointed a special prosecutor to re-examine the handling of the Flynn case. I expect this is an effort to appease DJT. > **[Barr orders review of criminal case against ex-Trump aide Flynn — CNBC](https://apple.news/AU-Wueop0RWKY-4kXWfiMsQ)** > > Barr's review comes as the attorney general is already under fire for easing a sentencing recommendation for Trump friend Roger Stone. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608/120 "2020-02-15T05:27:57Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I wonder if this is Barr’s way of telling Trump to shut his ass up. He (and Pence) might be one of the very few who’s in a position to tell Trump to shove it. The danger is that Trump doesn’t realize it and fires Barr in an escalating ego war, but if Trump does that, he’d end up with a temporary acting AG, which is what he had in Matt Whitaker. I think Barr is just warning the President to stop saying the quiet part out loud. It makes it hard for Barr to be an effective enforcer and fixer if Trump tells the world that he’s doing it explicitly on the orders of the President. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-ii-the-revenge-of-the-trump/847608.md?page=7)