# Trump is too far out there. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 11, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071 "2016-06-11T01:03:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/101 "2016-06-12T00:33:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And with regards to your opinions on so-called Geneva Convention and terrorists you might want to do some research. [http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1926&context=facpubs](http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1926&context=facpubs) You probably don’t want to cite John Yoo as your evidence for anything regarding, well, anything. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/102 "2016-06-12T00:36:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You probably don’t want to cite John Yoo as your evidence for anything regarding, well, anything. And your credentials are? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/103 "2016-06-12T00:40:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Maybe yours, but my question is legitimate. You claim in one breath to be against abortion and then say it’s alright to target families of terrorists. In other words, they’re guilty by association? If the terrorist is an enemy, so must their families be. > > Hey, it’s war, right? I never said that. That’s why I said you read poorly. Show me the quote where I support that. I mean this is simple 4th grade reading and you are getting it completely wrong. Show me the quote or stop making false accusations. ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/104 "2016-06-12T00:53:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I never said that. That’s why I said you read poorly. Show me the quote where I support that. I mean this is simple 4th grade reading and you are getting it completely wrong. Show me the quote or stop making false accusations. I think he means this > [@octopus](#): > > I feel deliberately killing innocents, even fetuses, **should only be done when absolutely necessary to win**. This does not say “should never be done under any circumstances.” ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/105 "2016-06-12T00:55:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If you’re going to limit immigration from countries with “people having an outsized amount of crazy views”, [this place](http://www.alternet.org/story/148826/16_of_the_dumbest_things_americans_believe_--_and_the_right-wing_lies_behind_them) should be [one of your prime candidates](http://list25.com/25-unbelieavable-things-americans-believe/). there is no moral equivalence between anything listed in your links and large swaths of populations who think its OK to kill converts, amputations for certain crimes, forcing women into hijabs, think honour killings are ok, etc. This isn’t Frank Gaffney I cited; [its Pew,](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) which is no conservative outlet. Every country has a right to protect its culture and people. And so does America. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/106 "2016-06-12T01:06:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And I also said that terrorists aren’t signatories to the Geneva conventions. Are we bound to a treaty none can enforce against us when fighting an adversary that doesn’t follow that treaty themselves? And you are wrong. The conventions ban the use of torture against anybody. It does not matter if the subject is a citizen of a signatory or an international outlaw or anything. No torture- no ifs, ands, or buts. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/107 "2016-06-12T01:47:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And your credentials are? What do they need to be, Mr. Herman? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/108 "2016-06-12T01:48:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And you are wrong. The conventions ban the use of torture against anybody. It does not matter if the subject is a citizen of a signatory or an international outlaw or anything. No torture- no ifs, ands, or buts. Any cites? And those with the carriers make the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/109 "2016-06-12T01:55:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Any cites? [Cite](https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/faq/torture-law-2011-06-24.htm). > [@](#): > > The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols of 8 June 1977 contain a number of provisions that absolutely prohibit torture and other cruel or inhuman treatment and outrages upon individual dignity. > > For example, torture is prohibited by Article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions, Article 12 of the First and Second Conventions, Articles 17 and 87 of the Third Convention, Article 32 of the Fourth Convention, Article 75 (2 a & e) of Additional Protocol I and Article 4 (2 a & h) of Additional Protocol II. In international armed conflict, torture constitutes a grave breach under Articles 50, 51, 130 and 147 respectively of these Conventions. Under Article 85 of Additional Protocol I, these breaches constitute war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/110 "2016-06-12T01:59:57Z")
> [@zoo](#): > > I think he means this > > This does not say “should never be done under any circumstances.” I know what I said and I’m not going to parse all the exchanges between Johnny Ace and myself. That particular line came several posts after Johnny Ace first erroneously accused me of advocating a strategy that I personally don’t think would be fruitful. Now that’s a key clue though with regards to affairs between nations or nations and their adversaries. Will it be fruitful or not? Why does a nation sign the Geneva Convention? Morality is only part. Pragmatism is another. And if you don’t think pragmatic trumps morality in the contests between nations I think a bit of reading the histories would help. My own point of view which I often don’t explicitly state because it’s usually off topic is that I think deliberately killing innocent people should be rarely done. That’s vastly different than saying I advocate the killing of terrorists’ families in the war against Islamic extremism. And before everyone gets all self-righteous most of you belong to a nation that knowingly kills innocents in war and in crime fighting all the time. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/111 "2016-06-12T02:00:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Cite](https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/faq/torture-law-2011-06-24.htm). But John Yoo, a guy even Republicans don’t defend after his Torture Memo fiasco, says it’s peachy keen! It’s always nice when an appeal to authority has such a truly appealing authority. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/112 "2016-06-12T02:12:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Cite](https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/faq/torture-law-2011-06-24.htm). Thank you for the link. Would this act be legal? [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-leader-mullah-mansour.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-leader-mullah-mansour.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/113 "2016-06-12T02:13:49Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But John Yoo, a guy even Republicans don’t defend after his Torture Memo fiasco, says it’s peachy keen! > > It’s always nice when an appeal to authority has such a truly appealing authority. Appeal to authority is what is done in cases of law is it not? Authority determines legal authority correct? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/114 "2016-06-12T02:17:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Appeal to authority is what is done in cases of law is it not? Authority determines legal authority correct? Trouble is, your “authority” is one that even right wing Republicans are not that comfortable with. In other words, a crappy authority. ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/115 "2016-06-12T04:19:42Z")
> [@zoo](#): > > I think he means this > > This does not say “should never be done under any circumstances.” Which is not at all opposing abortion while supporting killing terrorists’ families, like the other poster claimed. He either has really por Reading skills or he was being disingenous. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/116 "2016-06-12T04:42:16Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > Which is not at all opposing abortion while supporting killing terrorists’ families, like the other poster claimed. > > He either has really por Reading skills or he was being disingenous. beter por reading than por riting ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/117 "2016-06-12T16:00:12Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > Which is not at all opposing abortion while supporting killing terrorists’ families, like the other poster claimed. > > He either has really por Reading skills or he was being disingenous. Ah, nice to come back to find personal attacks. Or perhaps there’s another explanation, which has to do with the way that I read threads and the fact that I don’t necessarily remember every post made in the past. Anytime you want to test yourself against my reading skills, feel free. You’ll be severely embarrassed. Next time you intimate that I’m a liar, though, you’ll find yourself at the business end of a report. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/118 "2016-06-13T03:44:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The difference, however, is that Bernie Sanders voters, while white, don’t necessarily blame non-whites for their misery. They blame corporations who exploit foreign labor and weaken domestic labor rights and protections here. That’s a huge difference in how they see the world. Bernie Sanders voters don’t feel threatened by the foreigners; they feel threatened by corporations and those who take their money in order to further their political careers. That’s still threatened by foreigners. The narrative just moves from “non white foreigners are coming here and taking our jobs” to"big corporations are taking our jobs and giving them to non white foreigners abroaf8". ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/119 "2016-06-13T12:25:45Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s still threatened by foreigners. The narrative just moves from “non white foreigners are coming here and taking our jobs” to"big corporations are taking our jobs and giving them to non white foreigners abroaf8". Agreed that it’s still threatened by foreigners. I don’t know about the “non white” part, though my cynicism always makes me think that could be playing a significant role. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071/120 "2016-06-13T12:45:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Anytime you want to test yourself against my reading skills, feel free. You’ll be severely embarrassed. Next time you intimate that I’m a liar, though, you’ll find yourself at the business end of a report. Johnny, this smacks of debate intimidation. If you feel someone’s broken the rule go ahead and report them. We’ll then do our part. But threatening to report someone like that? That’s not conducive to debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-is-too-far-out-there/757071.md?page=7)