# Trump money laundering thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703 "2018-02-12T18:42:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/1 "2018-02-12T18:42:11Z")
I’ve spun this off of the Clusterfuck thread. I start this thread not in defense of Trump, but to put my own mind at ease. Trump’s sale of a Palm Beach estate for $100 million in 2008 to a Russian businessman has recently come into the news again since some senator wants to get to the bottom of it. As a headline, it sounds pretty bad – Trump bought a property for $40m, sold it it for $100m, a ratio which has been described as anywhere between 2x and 3x it’s “value.” However, there are some bullet points that mitigate the impact of the headline: - Trump bought the estate at auction for $41m in 2004 - The house itself, billed as the most expensive house in America, must have been a nightmare to upkeep, and was apparently gaudy as hell - After making some repairs, Trump put it back on the market in 2006 for $125m - It sat on the market for 2 years. The Russian (who has a name but I’d have to copy and paste it) initially offered $75m, but settled on $95m after negotations - The house has since been razed, which sounds alarming but was probably the right call given the value of the land and the small market for houses of that expanse. - The lot was divided into 3, the first (and largest) of which sold for $34m. - Real estate analysts seem split on whether or not the Russian guy will break even or lose money, but it doesn’t seem (to me) that it was necessarily a boneheaded purchase. Certainly the potential for profit was there. Given that this is a decade old real estate deal with a publicly known buyer and seller, and negotiated values that don’t seem all that crazy, I’m inclined to accept this one at face value. However, this is now being trotted out as a clear case of money laundering. The argument, so it goes, is that the Russian businessman wanted to launder some amount of money, and paid well over market value to Trump for the privilege of doing so. Trump, for accepting the risk of abetting criminal activity and keeping quiet about it, would pocket some $60m. This doesn’t make any sense to me. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/2 "2018-02-12T18:44:48Z")
Doesn’t make any sense to me either. Could you provide example(s) of “this is now being trotted out as a clear case of money laundering”? I imagine we’d have more fun discussing how ignorant / wrong those (presumably left-wing) sources are. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/3 "2018-02-12T19:03:39Z")
Apparently it is common in south Florida. > [@"\[Biz Journal](#): > > ([https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/08/30/money-laundering-runs-rampant-in-south.html](https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/08/30/money-laundering-runs-rampant-in-south.html))"]Michael McDonald, an international money laundering consultant with Wellington-based Michael McDonald & Associates and a former IRS criminal investigator, said every criminal case he’s worked on has involved money laundering. He said it’s made easier by the loose laws governing ownership of LLCs. McDonald has even made the dog the head of an LLC. Almost like the real estate market would be too tepid without lots of illegal activity. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/4 "2018-02-12T19:20:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Apparently it is common in south Florida. > > Almost like the real estate market would be too tepid without lots of illegal activity. I dug through to the source article, couldn’t get the paywall to go away so I had to read it in html. This is, I believe, guidance for Realtors about how to spot money laundering in south Florida (from the end of the article): > [@](#): > > Best practices and red flags for spotting money laundering in real estate deals include: > > - The money comes from a country known for weak anti-money laundering laws, terrorism or political corruption. > - An LLC or partnership is used to obscure the identity of the person who controls the property without a legitimate explanation. Know your customer, including the person or corporation behind the buying entity. > - Names and jurisdictions should be run through the OFAC list. > - The deal significantly undervalues or overvalues the property, and your party isn’t interested in negotiating a more favorable price. > - Actual cash is brought to the closing. A Form 8300 must be filed for cash transactions of more than $10,000. > - The buyer pays all cash, although it doesn’t match their personal characteristics, occupation or income. > - The funds used in the deal come from an unrelated third party or business that doesn’t take an interest in the property. > - The buyer immediately resells the property. > - The buyer doesn’t view the property, or isn’t interested in its features. The article does talk somewhat about the phenomenon of overpaying for a property, but not in a manner that describes the Trump sale. Namely, drug dealers are so desperate to launder their money that they won’t negotiate and just pay whatever ridiculous values the developers are asking. The article basically says this is going to be a problem for them because the bubble is going to burst and they’ll only get pennies on their laundered dollars. But the article doesn’t claim that the drug dealers are paying these inflated prices to benefit the developers, but rather because they’re all competing with each other for a limited supply of properties and it’s blowing up the market. This is a different scenario from a one-off estate. There’s also several key ways that the Trump sale doesn’t fit this model – - The buyer was known and didn’t obfuscate his identity through an LLC - The buyer has an obvious legal source of ample income - The buyer _did_ negotiate the sale price - The buyer was not in a hurry to flip it, opting instead to put considerable money into overhauling it, dividing it, and selling the pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/5 "2018-02-12T20:09:14Z")
Some wags have said that the Trump family business is money laundering for the Russian mob through real estate. I will wholeheartedly admit that I am predisposed to agree with that assessment. That said, the transaction described in the OP doesn’t pass the smell test or laundering, and sounds (mostly) conventional to me. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/6 "2018-02-12T22:08:56Z")
Mueller has the IRS criminal investigations unit investigating Trump. So whatever shady financial transactions he has done will eventually come up. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/7 "2018-02-13T00:59:26Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Apparently it is common in south Florida. > > Almost like the real estate market would be too tepid without lots of illegal activity. Mike _is_ one of the big experts in this field, he is mostly retired now, however, health reasons. Yesyoubetcha, there is lots of Moneylaundering in Real estate, and Fla is one of the hot areas. I dont see that\* this\*, however, is _nessesarily_ Money laundering. Those russkis are well known for buying RE at high prices to protect some of their cash in case they get into trouble. [![](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/c456abb47abb645de8d9f7434b3abf35.jpg) ](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/c456abb47abb645de8d9f7434b3abf35.jpg) Not saying it is entirely on the up&up, but it does not look to me as a “_clea_r case of money laundering.” Maybe, but more needs to be known first. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/8 "2018-02-13T03:36:46Z")
I think it’s a red flag only. People make bad deals all the time. It very difficult to set a market value for a unique high end property. Most buyers don’t ,for example, want a poolside aquarium big enough for a shark. So a high maintenance special feature can drag down the price of the property. Then you’ll land multiple prospects that want nothing more than a house with a big-ass outdoor aquarium and the value skyrockets. But significantly overpaying for a major purchase would be the kind of flag that might spark an investigation. Because the overpayment could be seen as unexplained income. So I imagine investigators would look for any sort of “rebate”, as it were - anything of value that might have flowed back to the purchaser. Maybe another Trump company gave the purchaser’s mistress a small condo in a Trump building. Maybe a Trump company awarded building contracts to a friend of the buyer. Maybe the guy overpaid just to ingratiate himself with Trump so he could milk him for information and slip him disinformation. Or it could be above board, a good deal for Trump. But it would bear looking into, even though there may be nothing there. That’s how a lot of financial investigation works. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/9 "2018-02-13T03:58:08Z")
[Trump money laundering in Panama](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/17/trump-ocean-club-panama-money-laundering-reports). [Trump money laundering in Azerbaijan](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal). [Trump money laundering in New York - Trump Soho](https://www.npr.org/2017/11/07/560849787/trump-soho-a-shiny-hotel-wrapped-in-glass-but-hiding-mysteries). [Trump money laundering in general](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/). Money laundering is his business. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/10 "2018-02-13T06:43:09Z")
Timing is a key factor. The Donald bought it for $41M in 2004, when property was definitely in a real estate bubble (which would last until the Great Recession kicked off in 1997 with the Lehman bankruptcy and bail out of the rest of Wall Street. So, in 1998 when the Great Recession was hitting hard with no end in sight, it totally makes sense that a Russian would think he got a \*steal \*for only paying double. The Donald probably was leveraged to his eyeballs on the property, got out of a nasty financial liability he would have had to wear until the real estate market in Florida bottomed a few years later, and made a fantastical return on investment in the worst market since the Depression. Yep, nothing to see here folks ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/11 "2018-02-13T13:23:21Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Timing is a key factor. The Donald bought it for $41M in 2004, when property was definitely in a real estate bubble (which would last until the Great Recession kicked off in 1997 with the Lehman bankruptcy and bail out of the rest of Wall Street. So, in 1998 when the Great Recession was hitting hard with no end in sight, it totally makes sense that a Russian would think he got a \*steal \*for only paying double. > > The Donald probably was leveraged to his eyeballs on the property, got out of a nasty financial liability he would have had to wear until the real estate market in Florida bottomed a few years later, and made a fantastical return on investment in the worst market since the Depression. > > Yep, nothing to see here folks I thought about the timing, but we’re talking about the most expensive house in American history, not a McMansion in the Dallas suburbs. The buyer had a net worth of $10b and didn’t need credit to make the purchase. I don’t think you can necessarily extrapolate the real estate market at large in 2008 to the .001%. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/12 "2018-02-13T13:26:34Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > [Trump money laundering in Panama](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/17/trump-ocean-club-panama-money-laundering-reports). Did you post the wrong cite? You seem to be saying that it is an example of Trump money laundering in Panama, but the cite says - > [@](#): > > There is no evidence that the Trump Organization or members of the Trump family broke the law or knew of the criminal backgrounds of some of the tower’s brokers, buyers and investors. I didn’t go thru the other cites - do they also say the opposite of what you claim? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/13 "2018-02-13T13:31:56Z")
The last cite also contradicts your allegation - > [@](#): > > The Reuters review of investors from Russia in Trump’s Florida condominium buildings found no suggestion of wrongdoing by President Trump or his real estate organization. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/14 "2018-02-13T13:39:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did you post the wrong cite? You seem to be saying that it is an example of Trump money laundering in Panama, but the cite says - > I didn’t go thru the other cites - do they also say the opposite of what you claim? > > Regards, > Shodan From the 2nd article: > [@](#): > > No evidence has surfaced showing that Donald Trump, or any of his employees involved in the Baku deal, actively participated in bribery, money laundering, or other illegal behavior. But the Trump Organization may have broken the law in its work with the Mammadov family. The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, passed in 1977, forbade American companies from participating in a scheme to reward a foreign government official in exchange for material benefit or preferential treatment. The law even made it a crime for an American company to unknowingly benefit from a partner’s corruption if it could have discovered illicit activity but avoided doing so. This closed what was known as the “head in the sand” loophole. The Palm Beach estate aside, there does seem to be a pattern with Trump’s condos – many of the sales involved fit the money laundering pattern I pulled from **eschereal** ’s cite, and per that same cite, real estate agents, mortgage brokers, and developers are all trained to identify signs of money laundering so they can report it. It seems that there’s some nuance to whether or not there’s a legal requirement to report it, and it’s very possible that Trump is staying just on this side of legal. Certainly legal doesn’t necessarily mean moral. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/15 "2018-02-13T13:51:30Z")
Thanks for doing the research. So three of the four articles say that there is no evidence of money laundering by Trump. And thus we can conclude that money laundering is what he does. Oooookay then. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/16 "2018-02-13T14:05:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks for doing the research. So three of the four articles say that there is no evidence of money laundering by Trump. And thus we can conclude that money laundering is what he does. I think it’s safe to say that Trump’s business model is particularly attractive to people who want to launder money, and the money is attractive to Trump. In the same way that hotel owners who rent rooms by the hour aren’t guilty of prostitution, but are very definitely in the prostitution business. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/17 "2018-02-13T15:07:19Z")
A common tactic of big-time criminals is to call attention to a non-crime to deflect attention from real crimes. I wonder if that’s what’s happening here. IOW, just because this particular Russian money influx might be legitimate, that doesn’t mean Russian payola hasn’t been sent Donald’s way in the past. There are plenty of suspicious Trump deals with Russian-type mobsters, [e.g. the Azerbaijan Trump Tower.](http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-azerbaijan-hotel-linked-with-corruption-iran-2017-3) > [@steronz](#): > > I dug through to the source article, couldn’t get the paywall to go away so I had to read it in html. Do you mean that you pressed Ctrl-U (or equivalent) and found the site hadn’t actually hidden the text? I’m glad to learn I’m not the only nerd that does that! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/18 "2018-02-13T15:20:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A common tactic of big-time criminals is to call attention to a non-crime to deflect attention from real crimes. I wonder if that’s what’s happening here. Trump has bragged about it in the past – I think this was probably a good deal for him, regardless of the risk, because of the publicity associated with being involved in the sale of the most expensive house in America. It was good for his brand. But it’s in the news now because of some senator calling for an investigation. An investigation doesn’t seem warranted, IMHO, based on what we know about the deal, and it will only serve to justify Trump’s claims that he’s the target of a witch hunt. > [@septimus](#): > > Do you mean that you pressed Ctrl-U (or equivalent) and found the site hadn’t actually hidden the text? > > I’m glad to learn I’m not the only nerd that does that! 😛 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/19 "2018-02-13T15:20:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > IOW, just because this particular Russian money influx might be legitimate, that doesn’t mean Russian payola hasn’t been sent Donald’s way in the past. There are plenty of suspicious Trump deals with Russian-type mobsters, [e.g. the Azerbaijan Trump Tower.](http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-azerbaijan-hotel-linked-with-corruption-iran-2017-3) That’s a reference to the same story in the second link. It even references the _New Yorker_ article that said what **steronz** cited. Do you have any real evidence? At all? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/20 "2018-02-13T16:08:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s a reference to the same story in the second link. It even references the _New Yorker_ article that said what **steronz** cited. > > Do you have any real evidence? At all? > > Regards, > Shodan There’s plenty of evidence in those articles of Russian payola being sent Donald’s way. Right? That’s all **septimus** claimed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703.md?page=2)