# Trump money laundering thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703 "2018-02-12T18:42:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/21 "2018-02-13T18:09:09Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’ve spun this off of the Clusterfuck thread. > > I start this thread not in defense of Trump, but to put my own mind at ease. > > Trump’s sale of a Palm Beach estate for $100 million in 2008 to a Russian businessman has recently come into the news again since some senator wants to get to the bottom of it. > > As a headline, it sounds pretty bad – Trump bought a property for $40m, sold it it for $100m, a ratio which has been described as anywhere between 2x and 3x it’s “value.” > > However, there are some bullet points that mitigate the impact of the headline: > > - Trump bought the estate at auction for $41m in 2004 > - The house itself, billed as the most expensive house in America, must have been a nightmare to upkeep, and was apparently gaudy as hell > - After making some repairs, Trump put it back on the market in 2006 for $125m > - It sat on the market for 2 years. The Russian (who has a name but I’d have to copy and paste it) initially offered $75m, but settled on $95m after negotations > - The house has since been razed, which sounds alarming but was probably the right call given the value of the land and the small market for houses of that expanse. > - The lot was divided into 3, the first (and largest) of which sold for $34m. > - Real estate analysts seem split on whether or not the Russian guy will break even or lose money, but it doesn’t seem (to me) that it was necessarily a boneheaded purchase. Certainly the potential for profit was there. > > Given that this is a decade old real estate deal with a publicly known buyer and seller, and negotiated values that don’t seem all that crazy, I’m inclined to accept this one at face value. However, this is now being trotted out as a clear case of money laundering. > > The argument, so it goes, is that the Russian businessman wanted to launder some amount of money, and paid well over market value to Trump for the privilege of doing so. Trump, for accepting the risk of abetting criminal activity and keeping quiet about it, would pocket some $60m. > > This doesn’t make any sense to me. Discuss. The story as I originally heard it is very different. For instance, this… “…After making some repairs, Trump put it back on the market in 2006 for $125m…” Way I heard it, it sat neglected and unoccupied, but Trump made “repairs”? Well, then, he has receipts. Anyone seen them? Got them? “Repairs” might mean anything from major overhauls to replacing the mail box. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/22 "2018-02-13T18:10:53Z")
You \*know \*he didn’t actually pay any of those contractor bills, right? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/23 "2018-02-13T18:15:11Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I thought about the timing, but we’re talking about the most expensive house in American history, not a McMansion in the Dallas suburbs. The buyer had a net worth of $10b and didn’t need credit to make the purchase. I don’t think you can necessarily extrapolate the real estate market at large in 2008 to the .001%. My experience with self made billionaires (met several, interacted with 2 multiple times in their core business and saw how they invested) is that they generally are critical investors who tend not to overpay. Some might call them tightfisted. They didn’t make their money by being overly generous. Having a net worth of $10B, with cash, in a global market free fall with no end in sight (at that time), is not the time savvy billionaires pay huge premiums. It is the time that savvy billionaires pick up great assets on the cheap. Then again maybe it was the dream of a Russian billionaire to pay a huge premium for a trophy property (Steve Ballmer being an example of a billionaire that didn’t want to lose out yet again for his own basketball team). That said, taking a deeper look at this specific transaction is not without merit. And I guarantee you that Robert Mueller’s financial fraud swat team has already done so. Will see if there is fire behind this smoke when Mueller has put a bow on the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/24 "2018-02-13T18:16:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Way I heard it, it sat neglected and unoccupied, but Trump made “repairs”? Well, then, he has receipts. Anyone seen them? Got them? “Repairs” might mean anything from major overhauls to replacing the mail box. It might. Since the house was gaudy and was torn down anyway, and the empty lots look to be selling for close to $100m altogether, does it matter? Clearly the repairs, whether token or major overhauls, didn’t affect the value one way or the other, the land is what mattered. I was just repeating what was reported. What else did you hear that was “very different”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/25 "2018-02-13T18:22:59Z")
Sold at auction for $45 million? And nobody else saw the massive potential for profit that our real estate genius saw? Remarkable. Did he include this in his Trump University “How to Tycoon” courses? You know, the one where he paid out a $25 million dollar fine for, well, fraud? Well. let’s have a look, whaddaya say? Then we’ll see all those receipts for “repairs”, the tax assessment value of the property, stuff like that there, and _then_ we can say nothing to see here. Then. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/26 "2018-02-13T18:25:08Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > My experience with self made billionaires (met several, interacted with 2 multiple times in their core business and saw how they invested) is that they generally are critical investors who tend not to overpay. Some might call them tightfisted. They didn’t make their money by being overly generous. Having a net worth of $10B, with cash, in a global market free fall with no end in sight (at that time), is not the time savvy billionaires pay huge premiums. It is the time that savvy billionaires pick up great assets on the cheap. **Then again maybe it was the dream of a Russian billionaire to pay a huge premium for a trophy property** (Steve Ballmer being an example of a billionaire that didn’t want to lose out yet again for his own basketball team). I didn’t put everything I found in the OP for fear of making it too long, but indeed, [paying a huge premium for a trophy property was kinda his thing](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article135187364.html). > [@](#): > > But Rybolovlev is well known for buying homes as if he’s spending Monopoly money. His 24-year-old daughter Ekaterina bought Skorpios, the 74-acre Greek island where Aristotle Onassis married Jackie Kennedy, for a price estimated at $150 million or more. Then there’s the family’s $88 million apartment overlooking Central Park West, the $20 million home in Hawaii acquired from actor Will Smith and the $135 million residence in the Swiss resort of Gstaad. (To be perfectly fair, that one consists of two houses.) Furthermore, as I said before, it’s really not clear that he paid a premium, because it’s not like you can compare it to other homes sold in the area. If he’d managed to sell each of the 3 lots for 50+ mil like some people thought, he’d have looked all smart and stuff. > [@China\_Guy](#): > > That said, taking a deeper look at this specific transaction is not without merit. And I guarantee you that Robert Mueller’s financial fraud swat team has already done so. Will see if there is fire behind this smoke when Mueller has put a bow on the investigation. Not to keep beating this drum but I just don’t get it. This was a public sale, the buyer is known, where he got his money is known… it just doesn’t smell like money laundering, and the Florida authorities have had 10 years to poke at it if they thought anything was up. Other than the buyer being Russian and the seller being an unpopular president, what red flags are there? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/27 "2018-02-13T18:27:20Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > the Florida authorities have had 10 years to poke at it if they thought anything was up. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest you aren’t very familiar with the Florida authorities. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/28 "2018-02-13T18:32:10Z")
Did the property look [like this](http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/rf/image_medium/Pub/p8/MyPalmBeachPost/2017/03/09/Images/newsEngin.18015076_pb100_trumpmansion2.jpg.jpg) when he sold it? I am seeing what looks like might be beach front (which would explain the viewing arc room). Beachfront property is absurdly expensive. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/29 "2018-02-13T18:41:22Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Did the property look [like this](http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/rf/image_medium/Pub/p8/MyPalmBeachPost/2017/03/09/Images/newsEngin.18015076_pb100_trumpmansion2.jpg.jpg) when he sold it? I am seeing what looks like might be beach front (which would explain the viewing arc room). Beachfront property is absurdly expensive. Indeed, I don’t know which one of these is the [before](http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/rf/image_lowres/Pub/p0/PalmBeachDailyNews/2009/05/23/Images/photos.medleyphoto.810763.jpg) and which one is the [after](http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/rf/image_lowres/Pub/p0/PalmBeachDailyNews/2009/05/23/Images/photos.medleyphoto.810767.jpg). eta: And here’s the [google maps link](https://goo.gl/maps/fBPHPb9Mh832) for those interested. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/30 "2018-02-13T18:44:52Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Beachfront property is absurdly expensive. And getting scarcer with global warming and sea level rise. Palm Beach property will be among the first to disappear under the waves - draw what moral lesson you like from that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/31 "2018-02-13T19:06:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest you aren’t very familiar with the Florida authorities. 😉 More specifically, such a case would be investigated by the state Attorney General. That is currently Pam Bondi, who btw dropped the state’s fraud case about Trump University right after receiving a substantial campaign donation from him. He has more where that came from, if need be. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/32 "2018-02-13T19:13:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > More specifically, such a case would be investigated by the state Attorney General. That is currently Pam Bondi, who btw dropped the state’s fraud case about Trump University right after receiving a substantial campaign donation from him. He has more where that came from, if need be. I’m sure the FBI has an office in Miami, as does the IRS, plus local authorities. Point being, if Rybolovlev and Trump were trying to do something sneaky with money, they couldn’t have picked a more public way to do it. There were newspaper articles about the sale of this property, with both of their names attached to it plus the amounts transferred. They made absolutely no attempt to fly under the radar of whatever authorities might be interested. Hell of a way to launder money. Contrast that with the link upthread, where drug kingpins are snapping up no-name condos with shell companies. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/33 "2018-02-13T19:49:17Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m sure the FBI has an office in Miami, as does the IRS, plus local authorities. Point being, if Rybolovlev and Trump were trying to do something sneaky with money, they couldn’t have picked a more public way to do it. There were newspaper articles about the sale of this property, with both of their names attached to it plus the amounts transferred. They made absolutely no attempt to fly under the radar of whatever authorities might be interested. Hell of a way to launder money. Trump needs to know who he owes a favor to. This does not sound like it was a good investment choice on the part of Rybolovlev unless along with it comes access to and favors from the president of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/34 "2018-02-13T20:35:17Z")
At this point, a Trump presidency wasn’t even a gleam in the Devil’s eye. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/35 "2018-02-13T20:50:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At this point, a Trump presidency wasn’t even a gleam in the Devil’s eye. Ah right…good point. One still has to wonder at the seemingly bad investment choice made here. I cannot imagine Rybolovlev wanting to make that deal unless there was something else to the whole thing. Considering Trump’s business ties to Russia this seems too much to be a coincidence. Kinda like Bush selling the Texas Rangers for thee times what he bought into it for ten years earlier (Bush made 25x his initial investment). Or Hillary Clinton turning a $1,000 commodity investment into $100,000 in a market where that pretty much never happened in that time frame. But of course all these things are legal so lucky for them I guess. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/36 "2018-02-13T20:58:50Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m sure the FBI has an office in Miami, as does the IRS, plus local authorities. Point being, if Rybolovlev and Trump were trying to do something sneaky with money, they couldn’t have picked a more public way to do it. There were newspaper articles about the sale of this property, with both of their names attached to it plus the amounts transferred. They made absolutely no attempt to fly under the radar of whatever authorities might be interested. Hell of a way to launder money. > > Contrast that with the link upthread, where drug kingpins are snapping up no-name condos with shell companies. The problem is, this is not like drug kingpins laundering money. It is something altogether different. And the parties involved were not like unto fugitives trying to stay under the radar. If you are doing something massively illegal, why bother to be sneaky about? Do it out in the open and people will get the impression that there is nothing wrong with it because you are doing out in the open. And if you get caught doing something wrong, you do not lose more, at that level, than you would have by trying to hide what you were doing. For some people, brash and shameless works so well, they may not ken any other way to operate. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/37 "2018-02-13T21:04:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Trump needs to know who he owes a favor to. This does not sound like it was a good investment choice on the part of Rybolovlev unless along with it comes access to and favors from the president of the United States. Which, of course, it didn’t. In 2008, when this deal was done, the idea of Trump being president was ludicrous. Unless Rybolovlev was ludicrously prescient it’s far fetched that this deal was done in the hopes of ultimately having influence over Trump. What could a multi billionaire possibly need from a relatively middling property developer? Here’s a NYTimes article from 2012: > [@](#): > > Mr. Trump was insistent on getting at least $100 million, hoping to make history with the first nine-figure sale for a single-family residence in the United States. The Rybolovlev trust agreed to pay the $100 million — with a $5 million credit toward demolition (Mr. Trump denies that, saying there was a credit of about $5 million for broker fees.). > > After Mr. Rybolovlev put down a 10 percent nonrefundable deposit the deal was in jeopardy. The South Florida market was cratering, and the Rybolovlevs wanted a price reduction of at least $25 million, according to a person familiar with the negotiations who did not want to be named. A spokeswoman for Ms. Bersheda would not comment on that assertion. > > Still, to Mr. Trump’s mild surprise the other $90 million arrived just in time and the deal closed in July 2008. > > Did the Russian billionaire overpay? The property at 515 North County Road was appraised by Palm Beach County for $78.2 million in 2009 but for only $56.1 million last year. Mr. Trump said he had other offers on the house, but he declined to be more specific. > > A few months after the trust bought the house, the air-conditioning system failed. Humidifiers and freestanding air-conditioners were installed to prevent deterioration, the trustees reported to the family. The trust planned to demolish the structure and build something else. > **[Divorce, Oligarch Style (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/realestate/big-deal-dmitry-rybolovlevs-divorce-oligarch-style.html)** > > Trusts linked to the Russian billionaire Dmitry Rybolovlev have spent a small fortune on American property. But his divorce is complicating matters. There’s more in the article. From what I can gather, they negotiated the price before the crash and there was some advantage to Rybolovlev in his divorce proceedings if he completed the deal instead of walking away. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/38 "2018-02-13T21:09:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which, of course, it didn’t. See post #35 above. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/39 "2018-02-13T21:40:05Z")
One question unanswered is \*how \*does a real estate transaction launder money? Let’s say I have a mountain of ill-begotten gains. I have millions of dollars in cash and my ultimate goal is to put the money in the bank. So if I haul the cash into a bank lobby and try to deposit it, they’ll take it and count it, but they’ll fill out a form indicating the large cash deposit and eventually the government will hear about it. They could then start surveilling me and eventually prove I’m a criminal or at least prove I might be a criminal and seize the bank account. So far this makes sense. If I go buy a condo in Miami instead, doesn’t the seller submit that same form that lets the government know that cash was used? Won’t the government eventually get around to investigating and be able to seize it, like they would seize a bank account? What is the difference? Breaking Bad style money laundering, at least it sort of made sense. That carwash was making millions! There was an actual business, money brought in in cash, the business dutifully deposited it’s proceedings and paid all the appropriate taxes. The only red flag was the business was making too much for it’s size, but that can be hard to measure without the government doing a detailed investigation. There is nothing that would make it obvious. Though I might note that a machine learning model could probably work. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703/40 "2018-02-13T21:49:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At this point, a Trump presidency wasn’t even a gleam in the Devil’s eye. No, but the seller is an American. Rybolovlev may have wanted to funnel money as political influence into the US system but FEC regs prohibit contributions from foreign nationals. So the two parties negotiate a deal where many millions of dollars will melt into the Trump organization and find their way into campaigns and lobbying that Rybolovlev favors. That would be a particularly detestable form of money laundering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-money-laundering-thread/808703.md?page=3)