# Trump now wants to use military force to take California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [June 8, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341 "2025-06-08T18:36:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/1 "2025-06-08T18:36:27Z")
Parody title, actual story. > [@POTUS sends 2,000 National Guard troops to L.A. to handle ICE protests - 6/7/2025](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-sends-2-000-national-guard-troops-to-l-a-to-handle-ice-protests-6-7-2025/1019320/): > > The extent of these protests, and any outright rioting and damage, of course depends on the news source as of now. Are there any Dopers in the L.A. area who can tell us more? I did consider posting this in the Politics board, but it’s not about any election. So the President activated National Guard troops without the Governor’s request or approval. And the Sec Def is threatening to send in Marines. Where are all our “Second Amendment protects us from tyranny” and “States’ Rights” and “Freedom!” proclaimers right now? Rhetorical - I know where they are - watching and cheering. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/2 "2025-06-08T19:16:07Z")
I believe he wants to foment a Big Problem so that he can start declaring all sorts of emergencies. One argument I have found to be somewhat effective with some Trump supporters is to point out that the second amendment is there to protect the rest of the amendments, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/3 "2025-06-08T19:30:41Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So the President activated National Guard troops without the Governor’s request or approval. And the Sec Def is threatening to send in Marines. The President does, in fact, have the authority to call up the National Guard and other state militia per [10 U.S. Code § 252 - Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/252) and [10 U.S. Code § 253 - Interference with State and Federal law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/253). The governor of the pertinent state ostensibly still has control over these forces; however per [10 U.S. Code § 254 - Proclamation to disperse](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/254): > _Whenever the President considers it necessary to use the militia or the armed forces under this chapter, he shall, by proclamation, immediately order the insurgents to disperse and retire peaceably to their abodes within a limited time._ This would seem to imply that these forces could be used to enforce this proclamation. Trump, of course, has already claimed that the ‘immigrant crisis’ is an invasion by foreign powers ‘sending’ immigrants the United States to interfere with elections, create crime and civil unrest, et cetera. That these claims are almost wholly without factual basis is regarded as a legalistic issue to be adjudicated in courts. This should not come as a surprise to anyone concerned about the erosions of civil liberties and protections in the post-11 September 2001 era (and by administrations of both political flavors. Trump is just the first president brazen enough to use this power openly, and to have a veritable goon like Tom Homan as his enforcer. > [@OldOlds](#): > > I believe he wants to foment a Big Problem so that he can start declaring all sorts of emergencies. Oh, these people are definitely looking for their ‘Reichstag Fire’ incident. The entire point of calling up National Guard troops against the wishes of the governor is in hope of inciting an incident, and in a state where he can blame the insurrection upon inaction of the state government. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/4 "2025-06-08T19:38:51Z")
This is all part of P2025. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/5 "2025-06-08T19:45:38Z")
The “don’t worry, the military won’t obey illegal orders” crowd is due to show up any moment now. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/6 "2025-06-08T19:59:14Z")
There is a current P&E thread about this event if we’re going to be all rational about the issue. But I suspect we’ll need a Pit variant soon enough. In addition to all the nice, rational language above, I think Trump is making an example. NO, your local government even in a blue state isn’t going to protect you from me. He is absolutely looking for pretexts, and making an example of the “stronghold” of his opposition, at least from his POV. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/7 "2025-06-08T20:06:46Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The President does, in fact, have the authority to call up the National Guard and other state militia per [10 U.S. Code § 252 - Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/252) and [10 U.S. Code § 253 - Interference with State and Federal law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/253). The governor of the pertinent state ostensibly still has control over these forces; however per [10 U.S. Code § 254 - Proclamation to disperse](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/254): How does the [Posse Comitatus Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act) figure in to all of this? (really asking) > The **Posse Comitatus Act** is a [United States federal law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_law) ([18 U.S.C.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_18_of_the_United_States_Code) [§ 1385](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385), original at 20 [Stat.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Statutes_at_Large) [152](https://legislink.org/us/stat-20-152)) signed on June 18, 1878, by [President](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) [Rutherford B. Hayes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_B._Hayes) that limits the powers of the [federal government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States) in the use of [federal military](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces) personnel to enforce [domestic policies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_policy) within the [United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). Congress passed the Act as an amendment to an army [appropriation bill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriations_bill_(United_States)) following the end of [Reconstruction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_era_of_the_United_States) and updated it in 1956, 1981 and 2021. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/8 "2025-06-09T00:19:52Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The President does, in fact, have the authority to call up the National Guard and other state militia per [10 U.S. Code § 252 - Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/252) and [10 U.S. Code § 253 - Interference with State and Federal law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/253). Yes. The last President to use the power was Johnson, a _Democrat_. Sent forces to enforce desegregation. But Presidents typical wait for governors to ask. For example, FEMA needed the governor to declare a state of emergency before they could send aid. But my point is that the folks who cry the loudest about protection from big government and protection from Federal forces intruding on the states are the ones cheering on the federal government intruding on the states and cheering on the President amassing power in the executive. I’ve been hearing for most of my adult life about how the Republicans are the defenders of liberty and protectors of the the American people, so its fucking sad but predictable that they didn’t really mean it. “Oh, I meant protect the right people, I didn’t mean _you_.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/9 "2025-06-09T02:03:55Z")
Its right out of the dictators handbook. Dictators want to neutralize any source of power other than themselves. Regional political leaders (like governors) having power is a threat to the dictator, so they want to neutralize their power. The question is what if Trump ignores courts telling him he can’t send in the National guard and tries to send them in anyway? He has a history of ignoring court rulings that aren’t to his liking. Would the CA national guard follow an illegal order? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/10 "2025-06-09T02:13:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How does the [Posse Comitatus Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act) figure in to all of this? (really asking) Under 10 U.S. Code § 252 through 254, National Guard and state militia troops are still under the notional control of the governor of the state so Posse Comitatus doesn’t apply. There are so many loopholes to Posse Comitatus even before just invoking the Insurrection Act (which Trump has demonstrated a willingness to do give even the slightest legally justifiable rationale) that it certainly isn’t the inviolate armor against domestic use of military force that people want to believe. > [@Irishman](#): > > I’ve been hearing for most of my adult life about how the Republicans are the defenders of liberty and protectors of the the American people, so its fucking sad but predictable that they didn’t really mean it. “Oh, I meant protect the right people, I didn’t mean _you_.” Yeah, they’ve basically been blowing smoke for at least the last three decades (longer if you willing to take a critical look at the Reagan administration) about being for family values, personal liberties, invested in defending Americans and promoting democracy brought to you by serial philanderer and first Speaker to be censured for an ethics violation Newt Gingrich. But Trump and his MAGA mob aren’t even Republicans in any sense except putting on skin-suits, and the GOP mainstays have glommed on to him as their Great White Hope of holding power, foregoing even the appearance of ethics or giving a shit about their constituants. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/11 "2025-06-09T13:17:11Z")
I saw a still pic of some NG, and damned if one of them wasn’t a chubby cheeked dead ringer for Rittenhouse, weapon and all. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/12 "2025-06-09T18:57:20Z")
What the Hell is going on? Apparently Newsom dared Holman to arrest him, and Trump said he supports that? Does Holman even have powers of arrest? Outside of immigration law, does ICE? [https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5340464-trump-arrest-gavin-newsom/](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5340464-trump-arrest-gavin-newsom/) It sure would be nice if there were any Republicans left who would stand up for the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/13 "2025-06-09T19:10:16Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > It sure would be nice if there were any Republicans left who would stand up for the rule of law. Indeed. Personally, I’d like to see Newsom co-opt the Reich Wing’s ‘ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ’ (‘Come take them’). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/14 "2025-06-09T19:37:57Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Does Holman even have powers of arrest? Outside of immigration law, does ICE? ICE can arrest people who are imminently and actively facilitating illegal immigration, preventing them from enforcing immigration directives, or attendant crimes (destroying evidence, et cetera). Could Tom Homan justify having Newsom arrested by ICE agents? Doubtful but it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t try given sufficient incentive. Frankly, I was (and still am) expecting the use of Customs and Border Protection as his non-Justice enforcement arm for his unhinged and legally dubious agenda but since the focus right now is on immigrants ICE became the default despite the limitations of their field officer workforce. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Personally, I’d like to see Newsom co-opt the Reich Wing’s ‘ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ’ (‘Come take them’). Aping fascist memes is not really an effective means of combatting autocracy. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/15 "2025-06-09T19:48:19Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > ICE can arrest people who are imminently and actively facilitating illegal immigration, preventing them from enforcing immigration directives, or attendant crimes (destroying evidence, et cetera). Could Tom Homan justify having Newsom arrested by ICE agents? Doubtful but it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t try given sufficient incentive. And then a standoff between ICE and California LEOs who protect the governor! ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/16 "2025-06-09T19:54:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Personally, I’d like to see Newsom co-opt the Reich Wing’s ‘ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ’ (‘Come take them’). How’d that work out for Leonidas, exactly? Oh yeah, they came and took them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/17 "2025-06-09T19:57:25Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Aping fascist memes is not really an effective means of combatting autocracy. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > How’d that work out for Leonidas, exactly? Oh yeah, they came and took them. It doesn’t matter now. Trump is mobilising the Marines to take up arms against the American People. We are officially in an authoritarian dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/18 "2025-06-09T19:58:55Z")
I hope someone reminds those Marines of the oath they took. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/19 "2025-06-09T20:03:32Z")
California [is suing](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/06/09/us/la-protests-immigration-ice-trump) the Trump administration over this. > [@RickJay](#): > > The “don’t worry, the military won’t obey illegal orders” crowd is due to show up any moment now. There is inherent trust between soldiers and their commanding officers that the orders they are given are lawful orders. They would have to have overwhelming evidence that this is not so before refusing to obey them. Most enlisted folks will not challenge authority because the odds are stacked against them and the penalties are substantial for disobedience. If anyone was likely to disobey an order, it would be another officer, not an enlisted man. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341/20 "2025-06-09T20:41:23Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > They would have to have overwhelming evidence that this is not so before refusing to obey them. I would hope being asked to shoot American citizens would rise to that level. (Yes yes, four dead in Ohio. But that was over 50 years ago.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-now-wants-to-use-military-force-to-take-california/1019341.md?page=2)