# tRump pardons Stone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2020, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991 "2020-07-11T01:47:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/41 "2020-07-11T22:20:35Z")
**Sam\_Stone** , none of those mentioned being pardoned by previous democratic administrations were involved in criminal activities committed on the behalf of the president making the pardon. And it is noticeable that your post ignored these pardons from Agent Orange: > **[Trump's War Pardons Are Sabotaging the Military Justice System | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/trumps-war-pardons-are-sabotaging-the-military-justice-system)** > > Victims of America's war crimes had little means of accountability. Now, even that is being eviscerated. > Last month, in an unprecedented move, President Trump pardoned war crimes charges against three U.S. military service members. The decision provoked [opposition](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-new-pardons-beg-question-american-military-just-killing-ncna1085651) from former military leaders and many veterans, but was applauded by some [lawmakers](https://www.navytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/03/28/lawmakers-want-navy-seal-released-from-the-brig-ahead-of-war-crimes-trial/) and [media](https://www.foxnews.com/media/pardon-war-crimes-eddie-gallagher-golsteyn-lorance). > > The three men forgiven by the president — Lt. Clint Lorance, Maj. Mathew Golsteyn, and Chief Edward Gallagher — had committed or were accused of horrifying crimes. Lorance was serving a 19-year prison sentence for ordering the murder of two unarmed Afghan villagers. Platoon members who turned him in [described](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/us/jailed-ex-army-officer-has-support-but-not-from-his-platoon.html?module=inline) Lorance as aggressive, ordering them to shoot indiscriminately at civilians in order to “make them afraid of us.” Golsteyn was set to go on trial next year for killing an unarmed Afghan man. > > Gallagher was charged with shooting at civilians for sport, including an Iraqi school girl and an elderly man. Witnesses testified that he stabbed a wounded teenage captive multiple times and posed with his mutilated corpse. Eventually convicted on a minor count of bringing discredit to the armed forces, Gallagher was demoted one step. [Overriding internal military processes](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/opinion/trump-navy.html), the president restored his rank. > > President Trump’s intervention evinces a callous disregard for the lives of victims and survivors, the rule of law, and the military justice system. For him, it was irrelevant that the service members violated clearly established laws of war. The fact that they did so while wearing an American uniform made them beyond reproach. “We train our boys to be killing machines, then prosecute them when they kill!” he [lamented](https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1183016899589955584?lang=en) on Twitter in October. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/42 "2020-07-11T22:37:47Z")
You found it notable that my post ignored something no one was talking about? Okay. I was bringing up examples of sketchy pardons from the past, and included both Republicans and Democrats. And I never disputed that Trump’s pardon was sketchy - just that other presidents have done the same thing. I mean, Clinton pardoned his own brother and one of the biggest financial criminals of all time, who fled rather than face justice. If it helps you sleep, I will accept that Trump’s pardons are terrible. They just aren’t abnormal. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/43 "2020-07-11T22:50:18Z")
It is clear that you don’t know the meaning of the word “unprecedented”… ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/44 "2020-07-11T22:58:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Roger Stone’s pardon for process crimes is weak tea compared to many others in history, by presidents of both parties. He was convicted of seven felonies. You can’t hand wave that away with ‘process crimes’ you colossal dip shit. The process of obstructing justice on behalf of the the president and covering up Russian collusion. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/45 "2020-07-11T23:04:40Z")
Hey, if you think what he did matches up with the biggest tax fraud in history, statutory rape, embezzlement, treason, terrorism and other crimes that have been pardoned through history, that’s fine I’m not responsible for your moral hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/46 "2020-07-11T23:06:50Z")
Nice deflection. Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/47 "2020-07-11T23:07:39Z")
As the cite and many others reported, no, several of Trump’s pardons are not a match. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/48 "2020-07-11T23:08:32Z")
It’s so nice that the pit gives you a place to express your true self. You must be very proud. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/49 "2020-07-11T23:22:45Z")
It is nice that the Pit allows me to call out your weak and transparent attempts and gaslighting and spin using appropriate language. You syphilitic fucking nit wit. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/50 "2020-07-11T23:27:46Z")
Most of Clinton’s sketchy pardons were for people who had already served most or all of their sentences, some well in the past (like his brother). Those I have a hard time getting worked up about. Marc Rich’s pardon can’t be justified and I wouldn’t try. Stone’s commutation means that he will entirely avoid punishment for crimes he committed on behalf of the President pardoning him. The only analogue I can come up with in recent years is Scooter Libby. Susan McDougal got a pardon in Clinton’s last minute flurry but she had served all of her sentence. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/51 "2020-07-11T23:42:25Z")
[David Frum in the Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/roger-stone/614068/): > Stone is the central figure in the greatest scandals in U.S. history. Ames, Hanssen, the Rosenbergs, Alger Hiss—none of them worked with a foreign intelligence service to help a candidate for president of the United States. Stone did. And now he will receive a commutation of his sentence from the president he served. No more needs to be said. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/52 "2020-07-12T04:23:31Z")
There’s a very clear message in this commutation, happening at this time, that I’m pretty sure _does_ make it abnormal. It says: “Go ahead, you can break laws to help me–_to help me get elected_. Don’t worry about it, because I’ll take care of you.” Image all those people working at this moment on Trump’s re-election, and what it communicates to them. It’s pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/53 "2020-07-12T04:54:35Z")
Technical question: Presidential pardons are un-appealable (and often unappealing) and irreversible. Is the same true of a commutation? Can a future president un-commute a commuted sentence? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/54 "2020-07-12T05:03:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > They just aren’t abnormal. I have no doubt that if someone kills Biden and Trump gets re-elected because of it, he will pardon or commute the sentence of the killer. And don’t even bother to say, “But he would never do that!” Every time someone has said that, Trump has gone on to do it. You’d probably say it “isn’t abnormal,” then, too. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/55 "2020-07-12T16:55:30Z")
Children, behave.This is starting to sound like the Fox News comments. Even in the Pit we should do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/56 "2020-07-12T17:04:25Z")
Eat a bag of dicks. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/57 "2020-07-12T17:11:20Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Eat a bag of dicks. - I’ll bet you have to go to a specialty butcher for those. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/58 "2020-07-12T17:17:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Hey, if you think what he did matches up with the biggest tax fraud in history, statutory rape, embezzlement, treason, terrorism and other crimes that have been pardoned through history, that’s fine I’m not responsible for your moral hierarchy. What does playing stupid accomplish? You were flat out told the issue. It’s not about which crime is the most immoral. It’s about the fact Trump is doing this to protect himself from preosectution. This is a “The president is above the law” situation. Also, I thought you were a conservative, not a Trump supporter. So why are you going out of your way to defend Trump? Don’t you want a proper conservative, and not a illiterate conman in office? Who doesn’t do stupid crap to spread a global pandemic in the country to your immediate south? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/60 "2020-07-12T17:18:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’ll bet you have to go to a specialty butcher for those. Costco ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991/61 "2020-07-12T17:19:15Z")
> [@Turki-lurki](#): > > Children, behave.This is starting to sound like the Fox News comments. Even in the Pit we should do better than that. Joke, or are there actually people in Fox comments who attack Trump supporters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pardons-stone/914991.md?page=4)