# Trump planning to pardon accused US war criminals **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169 "2019-05-18T23:12:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/21 "2019-05-19T19:14:52Z")
And when people scratch their heads and ask what drives terrorism, we can recall the voice of GWB: They hate us because of our freedom. Our freedom to murder little girls. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/22 "2019-05-19T21:56:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yeah - this is one of those things that is both awful all on its own and awful in its ripple effects. Yes. Trump’s decision will put members of the US military in danger. That’s a given. But, hey, as long as it provides a distraction from all that bad news about his dealings with Deutsche Bank and about that GOP Congressman denouncing him, that’s all that matters, right? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/23 "2019-05-20T10:35:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn’t mean they _are_ war criminals. Pardon also carries with it implicit guilt. To accept a pardon, one must first be guilty of something that requires a pardon. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/24 "2019-05-20T10:38:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Trump’s just building up some Presidential Pardon momentum. He’s going to be needing one himself. I think the deeper purpose is to create hyper-partisan polarization. He assumes that pardoning war criminals will excite the more blood-lusting among his base, and maybe he’s right. Most veterans I know differentiate between “shit that happens” on the battlefield and cold-blooded murderers, wanting civilians to understand the first type but having contempt for the latter. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/25 "2019-05-20T11:01:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Pardon also carries with it implicit guilt. To accept a pardon, one must first be guilty of something that requires a pardon. I’ve never been able to take that seriously. Let’s say I’m accused of a crime; and, being innocent, I of course plead not guilty. Possibly I testify, under oath, that I am not guilty. If, while still correctly pointing out that I’m not guilty, I wind up sentenced to death, then — what? I figure I’d keep noting, each day, that I’m innocent; and, were I offered a pardon, I figure I’d have a choice: accept it, honestly and explicitly proclaiming my innocence that day just like I’d _been_ saying and just like I’d _keep_ saying for the rest of my life; or, uh, turn down that pardon, and remain behind bars (like various guilty folks do) until I get executed (like various guilty folks do)? If I’m wrong, then provide me with another option; but if I’m correctly summing up your position, then which of those choices would you advise me to go with? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/26 "2019-05-20T11:09:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’ve never been able to take that seriously. > > Let’s say I’m accused of a crime; and, being innocent, I of course plead not guilty. Possibly I testify, under oath, that I am not guilty. If, while still correctly pointing out that I’m not guilty, I wind up sentenced to death, then — what? > > I figure I’d keep noting, each day, that I’m innocent; and, were I offered a pardon, I figure I’d have a choice: accept it, honestly and explicitly proclaiming my innocence that day just like I’d _been_ saying and just like I’d _keep_ saying for the rest of my life; or, uh, turn down that pardon, and remain behind bars (like various guilty folks do) until I get executed (like various guilty folks do)? > > If I’m wrong, then provide me with another option; but if I’m correctly summing up your position, then which of those choices would you advise me to go with? Speaking strictly in legal terms, I would accept implicit guilt and then get my ass out of jail, if that’s what it took. You can always maintain your innocence later. I’m talking about the specific situation that was mentioned in the thread. D’Anconia mentioned that they were merely accused of war crimes, as if that lessens the impact of the pardons. In reality I think it’s mostly a bullshit exercise. There probably _is_ at least some evidence of war crimes having been committed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/27 "2019-05-20T11:41:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Speaking strictly in legal terms, I would accept implicit guilt and then get my ass out of jail, if that’s what it took. You can always maintain your innocence later. All apologies, but you’re sidestepping what strikes me as the whole point: I’m not just talking about maintaining one’s innocence _later,_ but about explicitly stating it _when accepting the pardon_. (Heck, make it explicit on both sides, if you like: since I’m the one writing this story, let me now cast myself as Governor or even President; and let me now say that I’m _explicitly_ saying I’m offering the guy a pardon because I’ve come to believe that he’s innocent — and that said guy _explicitly_ maintains his innocence right as he accepts. What’s left implicit if that’s all explicit?) That said, you just suggested something that I don’t recall thinking of before: that, in the death-penalty scenario I’m proposing, the following seems ‘implicit’: _“we’re going to kill you unless you accept this pardon.”_ If a guy accepts that pardon while, again, explicitly stating that he’s innocent, then — well, okay, sure, add something implicit to what just got made explicit; but it doesn’t strike me as implicit _guilt_. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/28 "2019-05-20T12:16:47Z")
The defense that they are merely accused is absurd. A pardon is given when you believe a convicted person is innocent, or the punishment is disproportionate to the crime, or that you believe the person did nothing wrong. This is obviously the latter. This is in keeping with the theme of the administration. Caucasian Christian Americans are the only people whose rights have any meaning. It’s perfectly okay to rip a nursing child from his mother and throw him in a cage because, hey they’re from Central America and not quite human. It’s okay to shoot Muslim children for no reason because after all Muslims have no rights. It’s what he believes to the core of his being and it’s what makes his supporters giddy with delight. They all love to see “other” people suffer and die and they love this monster because he hates the same people they do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/29 "2019-05-20T15:24:10Z")
He may use his authority to void the proceedings, effectively “pardoning” the alleged monster. He would have the helpfui expertise of Sen. Graham, who has an extensive background in military law procedures, if Sen Graham wishes to surrender the last scrap of his dignity and integrity. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/30 "2019-05-20T15:26:25Z")
He has any left? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/31 "2019-05-20T16:24:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn’t mean they _are_ war criminals. So why should Trump pardon them before the trial? Like, if they aren’t war criminals, then they could have a trial and be found not guilty? You’ve heard of trials before, right? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/32 "2019-05-20T16:34:49Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Dude was repeatedly reported by his own unit. Read this thread and tell me this dude deserves a pardon and not a trial. > > [https://twitter.com/scotthech/status/1129900629382586368?s=21](https://twitter.com/scotthech/status/1129900629382586368?s=21) Good lord, that guy is an out and out pscho! I had only heard about the incident with the POW, not the rest of this shit. That guy single-handed did more harm to our anti-terrorism effort that any 10 random ISIS fighters. Don’t they have psychological screening for Seals? I’m starting to think that Alice’s restaurant wasn’t an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/33 "2019-05-20T17:51:23Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Good lord, that guy is an out and out pscho! I had only heard about the incident with the POW, not the rest of this shit. That guy single-handed did more harm to our anti-terrorism effort that any 10 random ISIS fighters. Don’t they have psychological screening for Seals? I’m starting to think that Alice’s restaurant wasn’t an exaggeration. I thought SEALs were supposed to be smart, not just KILL KILL KILL machines? Why didn’t some other SEAL frag this guy, for the good of the service? And don’t say because they are honorable. Letting this guy get away with what he did is already dishonorable. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/34 "2019-05-20T18:47:12Z")
Which is why they’re not letting him get away with it, and testifying against him. Or at least, trying to not let him get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/35 "2019-05-21T04:37:04Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Can the commander-in-chief get a dishonorable discharge? Yes, but now that Michael Cohen is in prison it’ll be tougher to organize the payments afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/36 "2019-05-21T05:07:10Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I thought SEALs were supposed to be smart, not just KILL KILL KILL machines? Why didn’t some other SEAL frag this guy, for the good of the service? In the words of _Generation Kill_ (which if you haven’t watched, you should absolutely watch), about a guy who shot civilians and camels during an op : - You know what’s even more fucked up ? Trombley only fired two bursts, maybe seven rounds. I mean, we’re bumpind down a dirt road, his targets are like, two hundred meters out and he hits \*\*exactly \*\*what the fuck he’s shooting at ?! I mean, fuck, man. The boy is a cold-hearted, deadeye killer. - Yeah no shit. That’s 'cause he’s a psycho. But at least he’s our psycho. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/37 "2019-05-21T05:13:13Z")
Yes. That would be the least. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/38 "2019-05-21T13:33:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Good lord, that guy is an out and out pscho! I had only heard about the incident with the POW, not the rest of this shit. That guy single-handed did more harm to our anti-terrorism effort that any 10 random ISIS fighters. Don’t they have psychological screening for Seals? I’m starting to think that Alice’s restaurant wasn’t an exaggeration. From Hechinger’s Twitter thread: > [@](#): > > Trumps use of pardon power would send a clear message. A value judgment. Consistent w/ his own cruelty, white supremacy, & violence at home & abroad. From police violence, to the Muslim ban, family separations, border shootings, & war on LGTBQ & women’s rights. It’s ‘Us v. Them.’ > [@](#): > > For Trump, cruelty towards “the other” is the point. If you’re Black or Brown, a non-white immigrant, a woman, or other minority you’re an “animal.” If you’re useful to him, he’ll embrace you. If not he’ll kill you, literally & figuratively, for sport. Just like Gallagher. He is spot on. This is exactly what Trump is doing. Whether he is consciously aware of the implications or not, I don’t know, as he tends to operate impulsively. It’s probably just his instincts. Trump’s instincts gravitate toward the psychological quandrant of dominance over his enemies. Trump’s pardoning of this vicious and ruthless killer is a signal to his political enemies, that he has it in him to be nasty as hell, that he sides with people who lack humanity. This is also something that can undermine and disrupt the professional culture of the military. It encourages lawlessness and hyper-polarization in the military, which is extraordinarily dangerous. Because it also fits into Trump’s pattern of authoritarian behavior, rewarding vicious people in exchange for their loyalty. This is why he is loved by his deplorables. Trump is useful to them. Trump liberates them from having to have any sense of humanity and respect for dignity. Trump gives them the liberty to be awful. Expect this to continue, and expect it to get worse. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/39 "2019-05-21T16:23:35Z")
I’d say, “Surely, this is the kind of thing even the most insane Trump supporter can’t defend”… And, I’ve mostly been right. The closest we’ve been getting are lukewarm takes like this: [https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1130215675979599873](https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1130215675979599873) > [@](#): > > A lot of people who’ve never spent 5 seconds in combat have some very strong opinions about how Eddie Gallagher should have conducted himself. > > I don’t know if he’s guilty. You don’t know if he’s guilty. He hasn’t had a trial yet. But I do know that our spec ops guys deploy 250+ days a year, immerse themselves in a world most cannot comprehend, and deserve better than rushed judgements from the Call of Duty brigade. And let’s be clear - this is a shit take, from a shit human being (general rule of thumb: if you write for The Federalist, you’re the kind of person who deserves less to be working in journalism and more to be a victim of a workplace massacre); the people who turned Gallagher in were his own squadmates. But it’s hardly a full-throated “MAGA!” defense. They at least have the self-awareness to realize that pardoning a guy known primarily for being a racist serial killer might be a bad look, and to throw out excuses for why the criticisms might not count. Pathetic, stupid excuses, but they’re not exactly saying “Trump is totally right”, which is a step up in self-awareness from these assholes. But wait, lest the tone of the national conversation waver, there’s Fox News, showing the self-awareness of a particularly dim sack of frog spawn. Speaking of a group of people who really ought to quit their current jobs and start a shotgun-tasting company for the good of mankind, Fox News demonstrably has the ear of our president, and they’ve been arguing that Gallagher was treated unfairly. One Fox & Friends host has been [privately lobbying Trump to pardon this monster](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/fox-news-host-lobbied-trump-to-pardon-war-criminals-report.html). Seems a waste of time, honestly - he could do it publicly and [Trump would get the memo](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/05/trump-media-feedback-loop-216248). The actual case being made? I dunno, what do you think - are these people utterly ignorant of what Gallagher did and chose to take to the air to defend him before bothering to find out (for four fucking months)? Or do they really not have a problem with soldiers gutting prisoners of war and sniping indiscriminately at non-combatant children? They work at fox news (and thus are inherently fucking terrible people), so it wouldn’t surprise me either way. If you’re a human being, this man’s actions should shock and disturb you. If they don’t… well, congrats on being outed as a fucking body snatcher. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169/40 "2019-05-21T16:45:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > To that I have to add that it would be less likely that other nations would be willing to keep American troops in their soil, because, while it was bad enough that some abuses are ignored; at least they knew that clear abuses by the military would give a good chance for the ones abused or their relatives an opportunity to seek justice. > > With a clown like Trump that opportunity, though not as big as I’m aware of, is completely neutralized and it leads to less support or compliance from the governments and population that are our allies. So there is a silver lining. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-planning-to-pardon-accused-us-war-criminals/834169.md?page=3)