# Trump - possible Wire Fraud indictment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 11, 2023, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382 "2023-08-11T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/1 "2023-08-11T02:05:03Z")
Special Counsel, Jack Smith, had a panoply of options/mountain of improprieties to dig through in order to decide if, and with what, to charge Donald Trump. Paring it down to the nub – choosing the charges that best fit the available evidence and offered him the best chance for a conviction – was, to be sure, no mean feat. I’ve also opined that he and Fani Willis likely were joined at the proverbial hip to decide the best venue – Federal vs. State – to charge _some of_ the possible crimes and some of the probable criminals. And now we’re hearing that Jack Smith – as was considered fairly early on – might be looking into potential Wire Fraud charges against Trump, stemming from The Big Lie and the Even Bigger Grift. Trump generated tens of millions of dollars in donations – largely to ‘his’ Save America Super PAC – immediately following, and based wholly on, the “rigged election” nonsense. There’s likely a case to be made that this constituted **[Wire Fraud](https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-941-18-usc-1343-elements-wire-fraud)**: > 1. 18 U.S.C. 1343—ELEMENTS OF WIRE FRAUD > The elements of wire fraud under Section 1343 directly parallel those of the mail fraud statute, but require the use of an interstate telephone call or electronic communication made in furtherance of the scheme. _United States v. Briscoe_, 65 F.3d 576, 583 (7th Cir. 1995) (_citing_ _United States v. Ames Sintering Co._, 927 F.2d 232, 234 (6th Cir. 1990) (per curiam)); _United States v. Frey_, 42 F.3d 795, 797 (3d Cir. 1994) (wire fraud is identical to mail fraud statute except that it speaks of communications transmitted by wire); _see also_, _e.g._, _United States v. Profit_, 49 F.3d 404, 406 n. 1 (8th Cir.) **(the four essential elements of the crime of wire fraud are: (1) that the defendant voluntarily and intentionally devised or participated in a scheme to defraud another out of money; (2) that the defendant did so with the intent to defraud; (3) that it was reasonably foreseeable that interstate wire communications would be used; and (4) that interstate wire communications were in fact used)** (_citing_ Manual of Model Criminal Jury Instructions for the District Courts of the Eighth Circuit 6.18.1341 (West 1994)), _cert. denied_, 115 S.Ct. 2289 (1995); _United States v. Hanson_, 41 F.3d 580, 583 (10th Cir. 1994) (two elements comprise the crime of wire fraud: (1) a scheme or artifice to defraud; and (2) use of interstate wire communication to facilitate that scheme); _United States v. Faulkner_, 17 F.3d 745, 771 (5th Cir. 1994) (essential elements of wire fraud are: (1) a scheme to defraud and (2) the use of, or causing the use of, interstate wire communications to execute the scheme), _cert. denied_, 115 S.Ct. 193 (1995); _United States v. Cassiere_, 4 F.3d 1006 (1st Cir. 1993) (to prove wire fraud government must show (1) scheme to defraud by means of false pretenses, (2) defendant’s knowing and willful participation in scheme with intent to defraud, and (3) use of interstate wire communications in furtherance of scheme); _United States v. Maxwell_, 920 F.2d 1028, 1035 (D.C. Cir. 1990) (“Wire fraud requires proof of (1) a scheme to defraud; and (2) the use of an interstate wire communication to further the scheme.”). [bolding mine] > **[What charges might Trump face if he's indicted again?](https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/politics/2023/07/19/what-charges-might-be-included-if-trump-is-indicted-again-)** > > Conspiracy to defraud the U.S. could be one charge I think the **[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/us/politics/jan-6-prosecutors-trump-fund-raising.html)** and **[WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/26/justice-dept-asks-about-election-fraud-claims-well-fake-electors/)** had good articles on this, but I don’t subscribe and presume they’re paywalled. There’s talk that the Super PAC – likely a source for many of Trump’s unending legal bills – could have its assets frozen if charges were filed, potentially putting a world of hurt on the defenses of Trump and his compatriots. And the list of potential conspirators is long and not terribly distinguished. Any thoughts on the likelihood of Smith charging Wire Fraud? The move as part of an overall strategy? The facts that would pertain to the charges? The law involved? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/2 "2023-08-11T02:13:02Z")
I did a quick look around the New York Times to see if there was a current story and didn’t find one. If one turns up, I’ll use a Gift Link to post it here. ETA: Based on ongoing reporting, I do know Smith has been doing a pretty deep dive into potential wire fraud criminality. He won’t waste time on something that isn’t going to yield results, but he’ll go to the mats if he finds a through line of criminal actions. What are the odds? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/3 "2023-08-11T03:09:54Z")
Bring it on. Anything that keeps him off the grift, uh… Campaign Trail. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/4 "2023-08-11T03:21:37Z")
This _is_ his campaign trail. He figures if he gets elected he can make the problems go away, so he is using this to keep himself in the public eye. His opponents can’t get a word in edgewise without being interrupted by another Trump Trial Tidbit, and Trump is just loving it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/5 "2023-08-11T03:29:43Z")
Sad, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/6 "2023-08-11T07:22:43Z")
If a grift happens in the forest but there’s no money to promote the grift, does the grift still happen? ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/7 "2023-08-11T14:05:50Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > There’s talk that the Super PAC – likely a source for many of Trump’s unending legal bills – could have its assets frozen if charges were filed, potentially putting a world of hurt on the defenses of Trump and his compatriots. The only hurt that could possibly happen is that Trump would have to pay his own legal bills out of his own pocket, like every other American does. In the 2016 campaign, he bragged that since he was a billionaire he could finance his own campaign, although he never carried through on that lie. Side question, what ever happened with Trumps tax returns? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/8 "2023-08-11T14:15:29Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > **(the four essential elements of the crime of wire fraud are: (1) that the defendant voluntarily and intentionally devised or participated in a scheme to defraud another out of money; (2) that the defendant did so with the intent to defraud; (3)** But did Trump actually do this? Sure, his main intent was to raise money, but I recall he was pretty open about that. Sure, he used “Stop the Steal!” as his sales pitch, but it was always clear that the money was going to his PAC, and that at least some of it would end up in his own pocket. I recall lots of people laughing at the rubes who didn’t notice the part where Trump told them outright that he was going to pocket some of the cash. That the rubes missed that fine print, or just chose to ignore it, doesn’t mean they were defrauded. They knew exactly who they were giving money to. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/9 "2023-08-11T14:46:01Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Sure, he used “Stop the Steal!” as his sales pitch, but it was always clear that the money was going to his PAC, and that at least some of it would end up in his own pocket. The predicate event, that the election was “stolen,” when Trump knew perfectly well that this wasn’t the case, is the fraud. The fact that he was open about the money was going to his PAC is beside the point. He was using a false premise to undergird the grift. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/10 "2023-08-11T14:57:57Z")
IANAL, but I also suspect that the Government would rely on **[this bit](https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-910-knowingly-and-willfully)**: > The false statement need not be made with an intent to defraud if there is an intent to mislead or to induce belief in its falsity. Reckless disregard of whether a statement is true, or a conscious effort to avoid learning the truth, can be construed as acting "knowingly. This seems to apply to **[18 U.S. Code § 1001 - Statements or entries generally](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001)**. So, when it comes to false statements made by people in the Legislative, Judicial, or Executive branch, you don’t get to ignore Every Single Attorney Who Represents the White House, the Presidency, or the American People, and instead listen to Sidney Powell, Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, Kenneth Chesebro, and the other band of merry pranksters … because … you like what they have to say. ISTM that NOT having to prove what Trump _knew_, but only what he _should have_ known … IMHO … could lower the bar dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/11 "2023-08-11T15:21:04Z")
Incidentally, that “reckless disregard” bit comes from the **[Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals](https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-evans-28/)** … > We stand by our decision in Abrams. Its purpose in cases such as this was to prevent an individual like Sarantos from circumventing criminal sanctions merely by deliberately closing his eyes to the obvious risk that he is engaging in unlawful conduct. Our ruling in Abrams was intended to foreclose this possible loophole, not to create a new crime as defendant suggests. Construing “knowingly” in a criminal statute to include wilful blindness to the existence of a fact is no radical concept in the law. I don’t see a lot of ambiguity or timidity there 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/12 "2023-08-11T15:48:56Z")
Is this the NY Times article you were thinking of? It’s from April but I’m sure it’s ongoing. [Gift link to NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/us/politics/jan-6-prosecutors-trump-fund-raising.html?unlocked_article_code=ZiEJFjfvanJQtMoeXd81xpvdiDkPAxutwE_IA-Ul-6gEinwmJaqn1PnHe8I2zE06Phqk3dHPP7r3vZs77sAZ4XvYhB5nJhRf-EXMhbQojr_I3fiRFHk4sPm4qqsv_opsbrdE-pDJw3rSvxy8trs4a9KYhEaRCTDmp_KDpJ9hZBFN22VYX5m_R6wRmr_HHJYl55jdBlk9QgDUwSHRF9P5l4yuq2AVkF6qmzMIA0GzHWyvBcPbhHigOPekUbTdDX-G6qvO-zGnnb-gkkfz5hQOOpviYvCHyMNSh3r1vx7KiffxV0ffmGs6kGV9isNNC-Nxr59GfbwojNOQN2MwjbByu0dp-4zunYyAgTwoMfelxawn&smid=url-share) > As they investigate former President Donald J. Trump’s efforts to overturn the 2020 election, federal prosecutors have also been drilling down on whether Mr. Trump and a range of political aides knew that he had lost the race but still raised money off claims that they were fighting widespread fraud in the vote results, according to three people familiar with the matter. > > Led by the special counsel Jack Smith, prosecutors are trying to determine whether Mr. Trump and his aides violated federal wire fraud statutes as they raised as much as $250 million through a political action committee by saying they needed the money to fight to reverse election fraud even though they had been told repeatedly that there was no evidence to back up those fraud claims. [This new article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/08/us/politics/kerik-giuliani-trump-jan-6.html?unlocked_article_code=65Oegxw0hQexdE3Lt1irbwfTshU0hz_Sc4A4mN-MEDxC51R5GAUMnogjSxsrhxn26VY5-8vbfkNm5y15plPQ24FaYaXXBZ5wbSvFhXIK7ttPXlpmGRh6pK0P8jArAjnK4LR286HUYq6RmhQ_Qmf5OOM_3ihl_Arn0jdTLE8ZfBgG8TH0s9eON2kqVzvR05bfckzlg9WloTXYg0JWy37kqPTS1f6DeXUmzCORMX2lq7AWe1P5JgNBFSp7hjPlsXdi_1m-S3Bw0Z6t3bu4Yd5wdJwrrxb4aacFCORdygkeZ7w5M9uMVbvikL0EGiqIMtpMtuynfdwXgd8AX5BBov7p34X9tKxTz-c&smid=url-share) from Aug 8 mentions that the feds interviewed Kerik related to Trump’s fund-raising. And here it is in Politico. > **[Special counsel still scrutinizing finances of Trump’s PAC](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/08/jack-smith-donald-trump-pac-00110279)** > > A week after the newest indictment of the former president, Jack Smith's investigation remains ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/13 "2023-08-11T20:12:07Z")
I doubt if anyone who contributed to his PAC cares if it went to his legal defense. Whatever makes trump happy. It wasn’t that long ago he had them giving toward upgrading his plane. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/14 "2023-08-11T20:14:28Z")
Just because they’re too stupid to be outraged by his conduct doesn’t make it any less potentially illegal. I’m glad this is being investigated. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/15 "2023-08-11T20:49:42Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I think the **[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/us/politics/jan-6-prosecutors-trump-fund-raising.html)** and **[WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/26/justice-dept-asks-about-election-fraud-claims-well-fake-electors/)** had good articles on this, but I don’t subscribe and presume they’re paywalled. I can help with that: [gift link](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/us/politics/jan-6-prosecutors-trump-fund-raising.html?unlocked_article_code=sDAd0wV18o2lhmlyX5T9FJ9QoaIVeBima3ZpbYwVml0Ax7m1SWj-8pwOqlQdWL3XSLM6j0h1JIAxktqtE818TcNiv4Jt_qenahtZWdSB1eIIlP5vr54grLhkD_Y3LSi7AwOr6Hyy2VmbRazxjgwSEtX_jO2-vSNHlxYW-VKNovKkCNkhIbss989X4j4XrjnhTV1Sv3TEiZnSQQ2TKxSMfENAy9oAwnBqGtzWJGWKWiAsVedK40QytUupcp6aLC2hgJ4tr_YlV99RRyZBh4dmQ4qb33fwcyADMmKWt3mb478CcjANfNQiq2quw2KGGiAbB2tkb2DUZxOPBHAuSEth3fcz0J2As2VJQFVh43R0l2gnFKs&smid=url-share) for the NYT. > [@Cervaise](#): > > If a grift happens in the forest but there’s no money to promote the grift, does the grift still happen? The intention is punible, isn’t it? So yes, it happens. In a penal sense, I hope. Trying to kill someone is punible too, even when unsuccessful. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/16 "2023-08-11T21:40:49Z")
I’m seeing a possibility of a [Zeno’s](https://personal.lse.ac.uk/robert49/ebooks/philsciadventures/lecture24.html) grift going on. Jack Smith prosecutes the Trumps grift based on the false election claims, but trump grifts on Jacks prosecution of him, but then Jack [prosecutes on Trumps gift of his prosecution, but then Trump grifts on Jacks prosecution of Trumps grift of Jacks prosecution … Jack can never fully prosecute Trump for everything he’s done it’s grift all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/17 "2023-08-11T22:14:24Z")
But in the original Zeno’s they get closer and closer to zero. With trump’s grift upon grift, the numbers keep getting bigger. That would be bad. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-possible-wire-fraud-indictment/988382/18 "2023-08-11T22:30:52Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > it’s grift all the way down. Just like 4 years ago. The grift that keeps giving, > **[Opinion | The Trump-era GOP: Grifters all the way down.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/07/trump-era-gop-grifters-all-way-down/)** > > At Trump's moment of maximum political peril, people around him — and the president himself — are making sure to cash in.