# Trump probably committed voter fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2020, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461 "2020-10-21T05:13:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/1 "2020-10-21T05:13:47Z")
I mean personally not just as part of a general pattern. Donald Trump submitted an absentee ballot as a Florida resident. Which is generally legal if you’re a Florida resident. But Trump probably isn’t legally a Florida resident. Trump has been a New York resident for most of his life. He bought the Mar-a-Lago property in Palm Beach, Florida in 1985. A flurry of lawsuits followed. Trump settled the lawsuits and tax questions by signing a legal agreement in 1993, which said that Mar-a-Lago cannot be used as a family residence and is a private club. Members of the club, including the club’s owner Donald Trump, are allowed to stay temporarily in guest quarters in the club. But only for a limited period of three weeks a year and not for longer than seven consecutive days. And again, Trump signed an agreement that Mar-a-Lago would not be his family residence. Move ahead to 2019. Trump has repeatedly violated the terms of the legal agreement he signed by staying at Mar-a-Lago for longer periods than the agreement allowed. But the agreement is still legally in effect. In October 2019 Trump submitted a signed legal declaration stating that he was establishing residence in Florida and giving his legal address as 1100 South Ocean Blvd, Palm Beach, Florida - which is Mar-a-Lago. Florida election laws require voters to give a valid legal address in the state in order to vote. Because Florida has a lot of part-time residents they have fairly strict laws about what you can declare as a legal residence and making false claims opens people to perjury charges. As I have outlined, the address Trump gave is one which he is legally prohibited from using as his residence so his signed declaration that it is his legal address is invalid. And voting in Florida with an invalid legal address is voter fraud. On the positive side, the next time the Republicans launch an investigation into voter fraud, they’ll be able to find at least one occurrence of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/2 "2020-10-21T05:37:05Z")
Why is it criminal voter fraud and not a civil violation of the 1993 agreement? “Legal address” does not, as far as I know, mean “address you are legally permitted to inhabit,” it means “address where you actually live.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/3 "2020-10-21T05:56:36Z")
From what I’ve read, it’s voter fraud in Florida to use an invalid address when you vote. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/4 "2020-10-21T06:07:25Z")
How is it an invalid address? It’s not a PO box or his lawyer’s office or somewhere where he never actually stays, it’s an actual house that he actually owns and uses as a residence. What if someone has two iguanas and a parakeet in an apartment that only allows a cat or a dog? They’re living somewhere in violation of a legal agreement, so is their address now invalid for voting in Florida? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/5 "2020-10-21T06:10:11Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > How is it an invalid address? It’s not a PO box or his lawyer’s office or somewhere where he never actually stays, it’s an actual house that he actually owns and uses as a residence. Trump signed a legal agreement in 1993 stating that Mar-a-Lago was not his legal residence. That agreement is still in effect. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/6 "2020-10-21T06:19:52Z")
Here’s an example. I have a storage unit which I pay a monthly rent on. I don’t have the actual contract in front of me but let’s say for the sake of argument that it says I will not use the storage unit as a residence. I sign the contract. But then I decide to ignore the contract and I bring a sleeping bag and a porta-potty into the storage unit and start living there. Now I’m paying rent on the storage unit and I’m physically living in the storage unit. But I cannot declare it to be my legal address in any legal documents because I have no legal right to be living there. If the town where the storage unit is located has a law saying that I must give a valid legal address to register to vote in the town and I give the storage unit as my legal address than I am not legally registered to vote. As I stated above, the storage unit cannot be my legal address even if I am actually living there. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/7 "2020-10-21T06:23:13Z")
Yeah, I think he’s violating the agreement. Whether he’s a legal resident of Florida is not determined by that. A homeless person can register to vote by giving the place where they usually stay, like an intersection. It doesn’t have to be a place that is legally a residence. I’m not saying Trump does qualify as a legal resident of Florida, and it is true that his registration can be used to prove that he’s violating the agreement, but the registration plus the agreement don’t prove he’s committing voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/8 "2020-10-21T06:48:53Z")
Is OP bringing this up today because he just discovered this, or is it back in the news again? It’s not a new story. The story (that is, the reporting of the story) goes back at least as far as May 2020, as shown in this Raw Story report. Other media picked it up, and you can find a lot of stories from around that time. The case is also mixed up with Trump’s attempts to get a permit to build a boat dock at Mar-a-Logo. Only a private residence, not a business or club, is allowed to build a private dock on Florida’s inland waterways. Trump officially changed his residence to there so he could build his dock, but that ran into the rule that the facility can be a club or a private residence, but not both. > **[Trump's Florida voter registration trips up his Mar-a-Lago plans](https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/trumps-florida-voter-registration-trips-ups-his-mar-a-lago-plans/)** > > Amid all the intensity and serious of pandemic, this little fable with no international significance has been percolating over in a quiet corner of our world.Once upon a time, a couple of months ago, Donald Trump moved his formal residence – and... ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/9 "2020-10-21T06:56:13Z")
ETA: If you don’t like Raw Story, here’s a slightly earlier (May 12, 2020) and possibly more comprehensive story at Washington Post: > **[Under fire, President Trump drops his Mar-a-Lago dock plan — for now](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/under-fire-president-trump-drops-his-mar-a-lago-dock-plan--for-now/2020/05/12/99060dd8-947c-11ea-9f5e-56d8239bf9ad_story.html)** > > Trump’s squabble over a dock had raised questions about the legality of him changing his official residence to Florida. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/10 "2020-10-21T11:40:47Z")
I’m really curious who he voted for. Did he back a winner, or vote for himself? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/11 "2020-10-21T12:42:36Z")
In your example, you have a contract with the owner of the storage facility which specifies that you can’t use your storage unit as a residence. If you live there anyway, you’re violating an agreement between two private parties. But the OP says that Trump’s agreement not to live at Mar-a-Lago was done, at least in part, to settle tax questions. I’m no lawyer, but it seems like an agreement with the state of Florida might fall under different rules than a similar agreement with a landlord. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/12 "2020-10-21T14:47:27Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Is OP bringing this up today because he just discovered this, or is it back in the news again? I just read about it yesterday and wasn’t previously aware of it. It’s so hard to keep up with all the laws Donald Trump has broken. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/13 "2020-10-21T14:51:40Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > In your example, you have a contract with the owner of the storage facility which specifies that you can’t use your storage unit as a residence. If you live there anyway, you’re violating an agreement between two private parties. But the OP says that Trump’s agreement not to live at Mar-a-Lago was done, at least in part, to settle tax questions. I’m no lawyer, but it seems like an agreement with the state of Florida might fall under different rules than a similar agreement with a landlord. I believe the 1993 agreement was negotiated with the Palm Beach town council. But it was part the settlement of a lawsuit, so the Florida court system was a party to it. I don’t feel it can be classified as an informal agreement between two private parties. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/14 "2020-10-21T14:56:56Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > A homeless person can register to vote by giving the place where they usually stay, like an intersection. It doesn’t have to be a place that is legally a residence. I think this is right. Is it constitutional to deprive someone of their right to vote because of a lack of a legal residence? Mar-a-Lago is de facto where Trump lives; he should be able to vote using that as his residence. Even if it’s not a legal residence for other purposes. Of course, given his record and rhetoric, I’m all for making un-indicted co-conspirator Donald John Trump defend his right to vote in court. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/15 "2020-10-21T15:02:19Z")
Meh. There’s a conflict here between his claimed residence as a voter, and his claim not to reside somewhere as a tax matter. If Florida has strict criteria on what qualifies you for a legal resident of the state, those laws are what govern, not the tax agreement. The tax goons might come looking for him, but the vote goons shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/16 "2020-10-21T15:06:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I think this is right. Is it constitutional to deprive someone of their right to vote because of a lack of a legal residence? Mar-a-Lago is de facto where Trump lives; he should be able to vote using that as his residence. Even if it’s not a legal residence for other purposes. It’s not an issue of denying Trump Florida residency or the right to vote in that state. Trump could very easily have established a valid legal residency in Florida by buying a different home or even renting an apartment in that state. Then this issue wouldn’t exist. But Trump chose to present a location as his legal residence when he had already singed a legal declaration that it is not his residence. He then knowingly made a false statement in his voter registration and subsequently voted, which is perjury and voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/17 "2020-10-21T15:08:21Z")
[Florida’s residency requirements](https://soe.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/guidelinesvoterresidencyupdated_02-2012.pdf): > [@](#): > > Legal residence-Permanent. Legal residency is not defined in law. However, over the years, the courts and the Florida Department of State/Division of Elections’ have construed legal residency to be where a person mentally intends to make his or her permanent residence.1 Evidence of such intent can come from items or activities such as obtaining a Florida driver’s license2, paying tax receipts, paying bills for residency (light, water, garbage service) and receiving mail at address, claiming the property as homestead,3 declaring the county as domicile, and doing other activities indicative or normally associated with home life. Therefore, legal residence is a convergence of intent and fact. Once residency is established for voting purposes, it is presumptively valid or current until evidence shows otherwise. See Op. Atty Gen. Fla. 055-216 (August 26, 1955). **A business address is not typically a satisfactory legal residential address but if the person resides there despite the zoning ordinance, the address could** **become the person’s legal residential address.** Emphasis added. Sounds like a zoning violation, not a voting violation. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/18 "2020-10-21T15:16:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sounds like a zoning violation, not a voting violation. Agreed. Residence and domicile for tax purposes doesn’t always match other definitions. People with less than permanent housing situations often have a choice of where to register to vote. See college students. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/19 "2020-10-21T15:24:10Z")
Fits a general pattern. [to the IRS] This property is worth $150,000 [to the bank asking for collateral] This property is worth $1.5 million It’s just a decimal point error! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461/20 "2020-10-21T15:24:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not an issue of denying Trump Florida residency or the right to vote in that state. Trump could very easily have established a valid legal residency in Florida by buying a different home or even renting an apartment in that state. Then this issue wouldn’t exist. I agree, but this path leads to “voter should have done something better if they really wanted their vote to count”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-probably-committed-voter-fraud/923461.md?page=2)