# Trump & public tax returns **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 14, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547 "2019-04-14T19:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/1 "2019-04-14T19:45:27Z")
The issue of Trump and his tax returns is a bit of a puzzle for us on this island on side of the Atlantic. Our politicians don’t publish theirs. I understand that it has been a voluntary convention, but he doesn’t have to. So what if Trump said, “I’ll instruct the IRS to publish EVERYONE’s tax returns as of next year. Mine, yours, and Uncle Tom Cobbley’s.”? Dopers don’t have anything to hide, do they? The basis of such a system is in place in Norway, so it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/2 "2019-04-14T19:52:13Z")
Is there a question here? Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/3 "2019-04-14T20:20:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The issue of Trump and his tax returns is a bit of a puzzle for us on . . . Oh please. Really? Could the disingenuousness be any more clumsy? The concept of conflict of interest isn’t that hard to grasp. I have no problem showing my returns, but this is about people who hold (or run for office) and also operate businesses which can benefit from how they execute their duties–and you well know it. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/4 "2019-04-14T20:28:36Z")
He isn’t required to, that’s true. Run of the mill citizens do not, either. Poiticians- as a demonstration of trasparency- have been doing so. The only people in America who have actually requested to see Trtump’s returns are in Congress, and they actually found a valid law that allows them to see the returns. That’s all there is to this. Unless you’re Trump or Trump’s enabler, in which case now is a great time to find different ways to break the law. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/5 "2019-04-14T20:31:41Z")
It would be illegal for Trump to have everyone’s tax returns made public. That is different than having tax returns given to the committees in the Congress and the Senate whose business it is to develop tax policy. It would be illegal for that committee to release them (or his) after they were turned over as well. It is also illegal for the IRS to not turn them over. Requests under this law for specific tax returns have been made for years. And scrutinizing the President was one of the primary reasons for setting this law up in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/6 "2019-04-14T20:34:24Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > The only people in America who have actually requested to see Trtump’s returns are in Congress, and they actually found a valid law that allows them to see the returns. Not totally true; plenty of us not in Congress would like his tax returns to be public, although it would be best had they been available prior to the election, so that we could have made a more informed decision. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/7 "2019-04-14T20:42:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The issue of Trump and his tax returns is a bit of a puzzle for us on this island on side of the Atlantic. Our politicians don’t publish theirs. I understand that it has been a voluntary convention, but he doesn’t have to. > > So what if Trump said, “I’ll instruct the IRS to publish EVERYONE’s tax returns as of next year. Mine, yours, and Uncle Tom Cobbley’s.”? Dopers don’t have anything to hide, do they? The basis of such a system is in place in Norway, so it’s possible. The IRS can not do so, legally. They can’t publish anyone’s personal tax info. They can provide them only under subpoena or request from the House. We have a _custom_ of Politicians doing so. However, the House is legally allowed to request any persons tax returns. So _legally_ trump doesn’t have to, but\* legally \*Congress can get them. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/8 "2019-04-14T20:49:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The issue of Trump and his tax returns is a bit of a puzzle for us on this island on side of the Atlantic. I’m sure it’s not really a “puzzle” to anyone who has given it a moment’s thought. > [@](#): > > So what if Trump said, “I’ll instruct the IRS to publish EVERYONE’s tax returns as of next year. Mine, yours, and Uncle Tom Cobbley’s.”? Dopers don’t have anything to hide, do they? The basis of such a system is in place in Norway, so it’s possible. What exactly would be the point to that? Most dopers aren’t in a position to sign new trade deals or propose laws or changes in taxes that would vastly increase their personal wealth. Trump’s activities could be entirely legal, but still represent a conflict of interest - something that wouldn’t apply to ordinary citizen. > [@bobot](#): > > Unless you’re Trump or Trump’s enabler, in which case now is a great time to find different ways to break the law. For someone who claims not to be a Trump supporter, the OP sure spends a lot of time worrying about how Trump may be being treated unfairly. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/9 "2019-04-14T21:58:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m sure it’s not really a “puzzle” to anyone who has given it a moment’s thought. Really? UK politicians don’t publish their taxes. Nor do politicians of many other countries. What makes the US so special? Are you sure your bias isn’t showing? Why aren’t you demanding that all members of both houses publish their taxes? After all, don’t they run the various committees? Don’t they vote to approve or reject your president’s bills? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/10 "2019-04-14T21:59:13Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Oh please. Really? Could the disingenuousness be any more clumsy? Straight in with the ad hominem, I see. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/11 "2019-04-14T22:27:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? UK politicians don’t publish their taxes. Nor do politicians of many other countries. What makes the US so special? Are you sure your bias isn’t showing? Why aren’t you demanding that all members of both houses publish their taxes? After all, don’t they run the various committees? Don’t they vote to approve or reject your president’s bills? You happen to be a little out of date on that: > **[The public are 'confused' for thinking tax avoidance is wrong, Tory MP Jacob...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/all-politicians-will-have-to-release-their-tax-returns-because-of-confused-public-opinion-tory-mp-jacob-reesmogg-says-a6978131.html)** > > The Tory MP said he regretted that politicians had lost privacy but that the shift was inevitable > **[Nigel Farage is refusing to publish his tax return](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-tax-return-avoidance-evasion-haven-refuses-to-publish-details-a6978861.html)** > > The Ukip leader refused to join the rush to transparency > **[Every MP under pressure to publish tax return after David Cameron reveals income](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/10/every-mp-under-pressure-to-publish-tax-return-after-david-camero/)** > > Every minister and backbench MP were under growing pressure to publish their tax return on Sunday after David Cameron made history by revealing details of his income. No one is saying Trump _has_ to publish- he obviously got elected without doing so. But it _is_ a American _custom_, that has now spread to the UK. However Congress does have the right to subpoena Trumps return. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/12 "2019-04-14T22:31:46Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? UK politicians don’t publish their taxes. Nor do politicians of many other countries. What makes the US so special? Are you sure your bias isn’t showing? Why aren’t you demanding that all members of both houses publish their taxes? After all, don’t they run the various committees? Don’t they vote to approve or reject your president’s bills? While I’m not “demanding” anything, it probably wouldn’t be a bad idea if leading politicians _did_ publish their taxes, because of exactly this issue. Perhaps the US can lead the way for the UK and other countries. 😉 In any case, there have been many good reasons for Trump’s taxes in particular to be of interest, from financial fraud committed by the Trump Foundation to financial interests in Russia and other countries. > [@Quartz](#): > > Straight in with the ad hominem, I see. This is IMHO. Of course your longstanding history of coming to the defense of Trump while denying you actually support him is going to color people’s perception of why you are asking the question, particularly when the answer is as glaringly obvious as it is in this case. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/13 "2019-04-14T22:35:33Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? UK politicians don’t publish their taxes. Nor do politicians of many other countries. What makes the US so special? As has been already noted, it _not_ legally required, but it’s become a norm / expectation among, at least, major-party presidential candidates here for at least three or four decades. I’m too lazy to look up cites, but I suspect it happened on the heels of Watergate, and Nixon’s abuses of power, and the distrust in government which resulted from this. And, as has been noted, the reason that candidates have been open about their tax returns is a desire to show at least a modicum of transparency to voters, and to demonstrate that they don’t have financial conflicts of interest. It appears very likely that Trump has had absolutely no desire to do this. Other information about Trump’s businesses that has come out over the years indicate that his personal finances are intimately entwined with those of his numerous businesses. There are widespread beliefs that he hasn’t wanted to release his taxes because either (a) they may indicate that he is not, in fact, as wealthy as he claims to be, and / or (b) because he’s engaged in questionable financial activities, and he doesn’t want to open the floodgates of people poking around further in his finances. If memory serves, Trump was the only major-party nominee since then who did _not_ release his taxes. It’s just one of a number of norms and traditions in American politics which Trump has decided to ignore. During the campaign, he regularly dodged the issue, stating, “I’m always under audit, so I can’t release my taxes” (now, there are no IRS regulations stating this, though yeah, maybe his lawyers, or the little voice in his head, were telling him not to release them). And, he kicked that can down the road long enough that the election happened, at which point his spokesmen could say, “the American public doesn’t care about his taxes, it’s a settled issue, stop asking.” Are Trump’s finances actually on the up and up? Sure, it’s possible, though I find it hard to believe. His evasiveness about the topic does nothing but fuel more speculation about it all. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/14 "2019-04-14T23:50:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > This is IMHO. Of course your longstanding history of coming to the defense of Trump Is scant to non-existent. You will find that I have attacked bad arguments, unfounded accusations, and the like rather than defended Trump. You know, ‘fighting ignorance’ and all that. Isn’t that part of the motto of this place? But how about you actually address the question in my OP? What if Trump instructs the IRS - through whatever legal mechanism is required - to release everyone’s tax records? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/15 "2019-04-15T00:02:10Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > … > But how about you actually address the question in my OP? What if Trump instructs the IRS - through whatever legal mechanism is required - to release everyone’s tax records? I already answered that. \*The IRS can not do so, legally. They can’t publish anyone’s personal tax info. They can provide them only under subpoena or request from the House. \* The IRS would refuse, Trump would had a snit fit, and the Courts would say he cant do that. Trump could fire the Commissioner, but not make the IRS perform illegal actions. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/16 "2019-04-15T00:05:16Z")
It _would_ be nice if he _tried_ to make the IRS perform illegal actions, as it would add to the list of high crimes and misdemeanors. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/17 "2019-04-15T00:38:46Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is scant to non-existent. You will find that I have attacked bad arguments, unfounded accusations, and the like rather than defended Trump. You know, ‘fighting ignorance’ and all that. Isn’t that part of the motto of this place? > > But how about you actually address the question in my OP? What if Trump instructs the IRS - through whatever legal mechanism is required - to release everyone’s tax records? There is no legal mechanism that would allow IRS to release everyone’s tax records. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/18 "2019-04-15T01:35:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? UK politicians don’t publish their taxes. Nor do politicians of many other countries. What makes the US so special? Are you sure your bias isn’t showing? Why aren’t you demanding that all members of both houses publish their taxes? After all, don’t they run the various committees? Don’t they vote to approve or reject your president’s bills? Your country has some political traditions that are fucking stupid, like that hereditary peers are still a thing. But I can understand at a basic level that these quirks are just what they are, and I don’t ask questions like why the UK doesn’t make all professions matters of having the right parents. (Want to run a shop? Well you better inherit it! Want to be a doctor? Etc) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/19 "2019-04-15T02:07:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Your country has some political traditions that are fucking stupid, like that hereditary peers are still a thing. But I can understand at a basic level that these quirks are just what they are, and I don’t ask questions like why the UK doesn’t make all professions matters of having the right parents. (Want to run a shop? Well you better inherit it! Want to be a doctor? Etc) Actually I have shown that in the UK the Polticos are now starting to reveal their taxes, just like in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547/20 "2019-04-15T02:29:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Are you sure your bias isn’t showing? > [@guizot](#): > > Oh please. Really? Could the disingenuousness be any more clumsy? When you’re defending yourself against the accusation of being disingenuous, being disingenuous is hardly the way to go about it. It’s obvious the reason you even asked this question is to play “gotcha” by posing a ludicrous hypothetical and then make accusations of bias if people didn’t agree with it. > [@Quartz](#): > > Is scant to non-existent. You will find that I have attacked bad arguments, unfounded accusations, and the like rather than defended Trump. You know, ‘fighting ignorance’ and all that. Isn’t that part of the motto of this place? Odd how those supposed “bad arguments, unfounded accusations, and the like” you attack are so frequently against Trump rather than against Democrats.:dubious: You’ve also wrung your hands in distress because you feel this place is too hostile to Trump. Yes, yes, you’re clearly completely even handed and free of bias. > [@](#): > > But how about you actually address the question in my OP? What if Trump instructs the IRS - through whatever legal mechanism is required - to release everyone’s tax records? For what purpose? You haven’t explained what the objective of this would be. I and others have pointed out that there is good reason for politicians who have potential conflicts of interest to reveal their tax returns. I’ve said it would be fine with me if all candidates for political office and office holders had to reveal them. What would be the rationale for a person with no individual influence on public policy to do so? The average person has some expectation of privacy about their lives. Once you become a candidate, you no longer have that expectation of privacy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-public-tax-returns/832547.md?page=2)