# Trump pulled out of Paris Climate Accord to benefit Russia and Saudi Arabia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912 "2017-06-02T05:28:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/21 "2017-06-02T13:23:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would propose that he is now being treasonous to the entire human race. So this is it? He’s lost your vote for 2020? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/22 "2017-06-02T13:51:47Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I think you are right here. > > He sees negotiating as a balance, very black and white. > > One side is pollution, the other side is jobs. > > In his mind, the other side gave up X amount of pollution in exchange for Y amount of jobs. In his mind, the rest of the world wants only for us to pollute as little as possible, but American wants only to have the most jobs. > > He’s the great negotiator, so thinks “Aha! I can make a ‘better deal’.” So he wants to shift the equation in our direction (as he sees it) – we want to pollute more and save more U.S. jobs. > > Of course, this (as so many other issues) is much more nuanced. It is not just the rest of the world, but the U.S. as well that should want to pollute less. We are setting targets for ourselves. The balance also isn’t just his simplistic less pollution leads to fewer jobs either. We’ve found in recent years that changing the nature of our energy usage doesn’t necessarily cost jobs. Sure, we’ve lost some coal jobs, but we’ve also gained solar and wind jobs. There is also a great deal of climate change risk we are only beginning to realize the extent of. > > Who knew energy policy was so complicated? Isn’t it comforting to know that Rick Perry is at the helm of the Dept. of Energy? I come to the dope to have my own ignorance about issues cleared up, so correct me if I’m wrong. So far, as far as I can tell, the paris agreement is a toothless tiger. Every serious analysis I have come across seems to agree with this - even those who are livid about Trump’s decision to pull out of the agreement are mad about the symbolism of the gesture and are not claiming that anything in the agreement had enforceable pollution controls. It seems apparent then that this is mostly a symbolic gesture; which could be bad, but is not quite “pollution vs. jobs” as much as “symbolic gestures vs. saving the U.S. taxpayer money”. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/23 "2017-06-02T13:53:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would propose that he is now being treasonous to the entire human race. Tom Steyer, is that you? Or are you repeating what you read on Twitter? > **[Tom Steyer: Trump Breaking Paris Climate Deal Would Be a 'Traitorous Act of War'](https://pjmedia.com/tyler-o-neil/2017/05/30/liberal-donor-trump-breaking-paris-climate-deal-would-be-a-traitorous-act-of-war-n51824)** > >   ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/24 "2017-06-02T13:54:17Z")
OMG. Trump knows someone, that knows someone in Russia and Saudi Arabia both. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/25 "2017-06-02T14:17:05Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > It seems apparent then that this is mostly a symbolic gesture; which could be bad, but is not quite “pollution vs. jobs” as much as “symbolic gestures vs. saving the U.S. taxpayer money”. If the Paris Accord is a symbolic gesture (which I agree it partly/largely is), so is the act of pulling out. It’s symbolic gesture vs. symbolic gesture. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/26 "2017-06-02T14:30:39Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Tom Steyer, is that you? Or are you repeating what you read on Twitter? > > [Tom Steyer: Trump Breaking Paris Climate Deal Would Be a 'Traitorous Act of War' – PJ Media](https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/05/30/liberal-donor-trump-breaking-paris-climate-deal-would-be-a-traitorous-act-of-war/) Got so far until Tyler O’Neil there just spouted boiler plate climate denial points. No wonder they do not see a problem, I have to see them as just the same as anti-vaxxers in their naive way they deal with risk. > [@](#): > > The science is very far from “settled” on climate change, however. Climate models fail over and over again. Senate Democrats launched an inquisition last year aimed at silencing free inquiry and speech about this issue. Activists like Bill Nye give very unscientific answers when pressed on the issue, and a Georgia Tech climatologist resigned rather than give up her scientific integrity by toeing the party line. Nice Gish gallop there, suffice to say that O’Neil is lying to you and many others. For example, what O’neil does not mention is that that Georgia Tech climatologist is Judith Curry. > **[Judith Curry](https://www.desmog.com/judith-curry/)** > > Judith Curry Credentials Background Judith A. Curry is an American climatologist and professor emerita of the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she chaired the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences from 2002–2014. She is the president of... > [@](#): > > Judith Curry has been invited by Republicans to testify at climate change hearings regarding alleged uncertainties regarding man-made climate change. She has also participated in a variety of blogs in the skeptical science community including Climate Audit, the Air Vent , and others. [2], [3] > > Curry has been criticized by climate scientists for her climate outreach in the blogosphere based on assertions not necessarily supported by the evidence: particularly that the “climate always changes.” [4] > > Scientist Mark Serreze, director of the National Snow and Ice Data Center at the University of Colorado at Boulder, points out that “Climate doesn’t change all by itself for no good reason. Something has to force it.” [4] She is what the Republicans get after Newt Gingrich dismantled the scientific group in congress that advised our congress people when they had to deal with issues or regulations that involved science. As Gingrich put it, they noticed how after getting rid of the science agency they got to see experts more to their liking coming from the lobbies they had. There should be no need to tell you that that is the equivalent to Doctor Shopping as it is in medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/27 "2017-06-02T14:38:30Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > If the Paris Accord is a symbolic gesture (which I agree it partly/largely is), so is the act of pulling out. It’s symbolic gesture vs. symbolic gesture. Yet people I consider to be fairly intelligent keep arguing about the issue as if the U.S. is backing out of a legally enforceable treaty that has real rather than merely symbolic consequences. For that reason, I’m still keeping an open mind on this point. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/28 "2017-06-02T14:50:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Both Russia and Saudi Arabia’s economy are based on oil. They’re struggling to keep the price of oil high enough to maintain their economies. The only way to keep oil at high prices is to either decrease the amount of oil or increase the demand for oil. The Paris Climate Accord cut back on the demand for oil. Donald Trump has pulled out the Accord, and has had significant personal relations with Russia and Saudi Arabia. :dubious: Basically, just about everything you are saying here is wrong. Saudi definitely hasn’t been struggling to keep the price of oil high…their actions are much more complex than that, but for the past several years they have been trying to drive the price down for a variety or reasons I’m not going to get into here. Your characterization is wrong. Russia…sure, they would LIKE the price to be high, since they need it to be to make their economy work. But they have very little impact on this. I’ll give you that they would like to have more though. The ‘Paris Climate Accord’ has had zero impact on this, so far…it’s not the reason why the price of oil has been low. Trump didn’t pull out of it because of Saudi or Russia…he pulled out because A) he genuinely believes that it’s a waste, and B) it was part of his campaign promise to his base, and when he can get low hanging fruit like this he will for a ‘win’, and C) because it’s part of the overarching Republican narrative and, again, when he can get low hanging fruit like this he certainly will. You don’t need to go looking for vast conspracies or making this more complicated than it has to be. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/29 "2017-06-02T16:28:14Z")
One of the reasons Saudi forced low prices on oil was to bugger up Russia, another was to bugger up American Fracking: the main was to bugger up Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Emily\_Litella](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emily_litella/32/3370_2.png) [@Emily\_Litella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emily_Litella)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/30 "2017-06-02T16:45:42Z")
I’m fairly sure I heard him say something about saving America a huge fortune by pulling out of the Accord. He means to send the money to Pittsburgh instead of Paris (wtf?). But it’s not like the rest of the countries in the Accord are holding a gun to our heads to hand over money, America decides how much to spend and how much to regulate pollution. It pretty much is a symbolic gesture giving him a chance to say “Look how I’m not letting the rest of the world screw us over. Aren’t I tremendous?” I’m also hearing that he’s given away the leadership of the free world by doing this. I don’t think this is the point in time where that happened. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/31 "2017-06-02T17:02:26Z")
Given that the US is the third largest oil producing country in the world isn’t just as much our interest as Saudia Arabia and Russia to have high oil prices? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/32 "2017-06-02T17:02:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > suffice to say that O’Neil is lying to you and many others. That link had a screen capture of Steyer’s Twitter comment. How is that lying? In any case, did you come up with this accusation of treason on Trump’s part by yourself, or did you read it somewhere on the internet? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/33 "2017-06-02T17:07:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That link had a screen capture of Steyer’s Twitter comment. How is that lying? :rolleyes: The point stands, the writer you linked as a reply uses big time lies to convince you that he is the beesness when he should not be used for citations. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > In any case, did you come up with this accusation of treason on Trump’s part by yourself, or did you read it somewhere on the internet? I came up with it myself. Did not depend on what Steyer’s said. And it was related to betraying the human race, not America, but it can qualify when one notices that a lot of the jobs Trump “saved” are now being tossed under the bus. What it is clear is that one can bet that you will remain angry with anyone pointing at how much your sources lie to you and you will not demand better from those sources. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/34 "2017-06-02T17:14:45Z")
Personally, I think the reason he did it is embedded right into his speech : he said the deal was “yugely unfair to the US” (err, no it’s really not) and that he would try and secure a “better deal”. And that’s it right there : - his whole “I’m the king of the deal” PR shtick - he wants to say “I’m the one that made it happen” - most importantly, he wants this “new deal” (that is to say, world leaders telling him personally to stop being an arse - little bit of an ego boost there) to happen under him, because he wants his cut. I mean, he _knows_ climate change happens (a fucking sinkhole opened right in front of his stupid golf fer chrissakes), and he knows the US needs to be involved. But the man gotta have his cheese before that can happen. He’s, essentially, trying to take the whole world hostage without even a goddamn moon laser to show for it. Fuck him. We can wait the bum out a couple years. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/35 "2017-06-02T17:20:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What it is clear is that one can bet that you will remain angry with anyone pointing at how much your sources lie to you and you will not demand better from those sources. It’s not one of “my” sources. I read about Steyer’s comment in several places in the last few days. This morning, I googled Steyer and treason, and that’s the first link I found. I don’t even know what PJ Media is. Unless you think they doctored the screen capture, they accurately reported what Steyer said. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/36 "2017-06-02T17:23:42Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’ not one of “my” sources. I read about Steyer’s comment in several places in the last few days. This morning, I googled Steyer and treason, and that’s the first link I found. > > I don’t even know what PJ Media is. Unless you think they doctored the screen capture, they accurately reported what Steyer said. More than once I have pointed that the sources of today are social media and blogs. So yes, your sources. As I said also before: get better friends. (besides looking at better sources of info, you only showed that you looked at a [nut pick](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nutpicking). ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/37 "2017-06-02T17:25:56Z")
[Oil is sliding after the US withdraws from the Paris Climate Accord](http://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/news/wti-oil-price-falling-after-us-withdraw-from-paris-climate-accord-2017-6-1002063823) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/38 "2017-06-02T17:48:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > More than once I have pointed that the sources of today are social media and blogs. I strongly disagree. On social media, are there fact-checkers or editorial boards? Do the writers go to journalism school to earn degrees? Are there Pulitzer prizes for Facebook? Any standards at all? No, and therefore social media is not a cite for anything. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/39 "2017-06-02T17:53:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I strongly disagree. On social media, are there fact-checkers or editorial boards? Do the writers go to journalism school to earn degrees? Are there Pulitzer prizes for Facebook? Any standards at all? > > No, and therefore social media is not a cite for anything. Hence my point that you need better acquaintances or sources. And no, I’m not excluding the right wing media sources you are using. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912/40 "2017-06-02T18:18:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Hence my point that you need better acquaintances or sources. And no, I’m not excluding the right wing media sources you are using. Your posts in this thread are silly. PJ media is not MY source, it’s the first one I found on Google. But here’s the original: [https://twitter.com/TomSteyer?ref\_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author](https://twitter.com/TomSteyer?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) You have to scroll down to May 28th. Are you now denying that he said it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-pulled-out-of-paris-climate-accord-to-benefit-russia-and-saudi-arabia/787912.md?page=3)