Trump pulling out of arms treaty

The original treaty was advantageous, essentially, to the United States–for the reasons already mentioned. We were having political issues keeping weapons like this deployed, with the writing on the wall that most European countries weren’t going to allow new deployments anyway, or at the very least there would be political problems associated with it. By getting rid of them we basically moved off the table a type of weapons where we had long term disadvantages versus Russia since we were going to have political issues maintaining deployments in Europe and Russia was not.

Meanwhile we had a good advantage in submarine launched missiles that meant from a practical sense, we weren’t actually losing meaningful nuclear capacity in theater, but Russia was. (When the treaty was signed we decommissioned like 800 missiles and they 1800, sort of showing the disparity.)

It’s not real surprise that a treaty that at least theoretically was more beneficial to the United States, Russia proceeded to more or less violate repeatedly. Arguably this treaty has had little practical meaning since 2007 when Putin publicly declared that it “does not suit Russia’s interests.” While he didn’t formally withdraw at that time, Russia hasn’t been committed to compliance since then.

From a PR perspective, us withdrawing is probably slightly bad for us and slightly good for Russia, although I doubt it has any lasting effect that is meaningful in any real sense. It’ll be played up a lot on RT and other Russian propaganda outfits, but that’s hardly meaningful. If I had to “guess” why some of the more somber military top brass have favored this move over the past couple of years, is it probably relates more to our interests in the Pacific as others have noted, than it does anything that might go on in Europe.

From a practical effect Russia isn’t going to start some massive nuclear arms build up, and probably not even a massive missile build up. Especially in terms of a nuclear build up, I think it’s probably hard to overstate how much Russia’s capacities have diminished versus the peak of the Soviet Union. In terms of expert workers/engineers, in terms of financial ability to properly maintain a large nuclear arsenal etc. It’s hard to conclude that Putin hasn’t been highly effective as Russia’s leader, he’s found ways to punch above his weight. But the reality is the country he leads is in long run military decline, and while Russia has done a wonderful job with smoke and mirrors to hide this fact–it’s really almost a third rate military power now compared to the United States or China, and that trend isn’t likely to change.

As a sign of how weak Russia is, something I pointed out when they annexed Crimea, is that to continue social welfare policies in Crimea (which they have committed to do), the province represents a net drain on the country to the tune of about 10% of the Russian annual budget. The fact that tiny Crimea costs Russia so much means that from a practical standpoint holding Crimea actually makes Russia weaker. The only way it really makes sense is if you factor in how it personally benefits Vladimir Putin’s political hold on the country to be able to wave the flag and have a victory.

When it comes to America’s interests–certainly we shouldn’t not take Russia seriously. Even in decline Russia has formidable capabilities in a lot of areas, and has shown themselves to be decently proficient at utilizing them in a way that often costs them little but reaps major rewards. I’m simply saying that the rumblings I’ve heard in many liberal quarters, about a return to a major arms race ala the Cold War between Russia and the United States just will not happen, I think most people don’t actually understand the scale of that arms race and how Russia has literally no capability to go back to that level of production. America has the money to do so, but couldn’t easily produce at that level again either, there’s a lot of infrastructure involved that has been scaled back over the years and would take years to build back up.

Martin Hyde, certainly I suspect the Pacific played a greater role in the US calculus here than Russia, as has been mentioned.

But, one thing which was only coming online in 1987, and probably delayed for a generation as a result, was highly accurate and mobile theatre systems, with hard target kill capability. If the Russians reconstitute their IRBM forces, then the Russian Far East is between 3000-5000 KM away from the US West coast targets. Intermediate range weapons are not counted towards the Strategic Arms control agreements. Modern IRBM in the Far East would permit the Russians to hold at risk the entire US West coast, without committing a single strategic warhead.
Presumably the Pentagon has decided that such an outcome is acceptable if China is to be countered?

I agree. I’m certainly not in a position to know the complete extent to which the Russians have been violating the Treaty, but clearly they have been, and that was documented under the Obama Administration. Thus, this isn’t some issue that was just recently grabbed by the President from a discussion on Fox & Friends. It’s a serious issue, and as noted, the People’s Republic of China figures VERY heavily in this, since they are getting quite aggressive in East Asia, and we’re handcuffed by the Treaty from dealing with that, potentially.

So this decision (which John Bolton made clear to the Wall Street Journal yesterday is not final, depends upon consults with our allies in Europe and Asia, and is subject to further discussion with the Russians) could be a very sound response to a very provocative set of behaviors by the Russians (and the Chinese). Or, it could be an unsound response to those behaviors. Or, given this Administration’s track record, could just be the flavor of the day designed to get the base behind him.

The trouble is that it’s very difficult to assess grown-up behavior from the Administration when so much of the rhetoric it issues is somewhat less adult in nature. I think the key is to see how the follow-through goes. After all, one has to give props to the President that, despite the appearance of non-adult rhetoric about Korea, he did manage to accomplish some positive results there.

I’m not really sure the status of the treaty would materially change Russia’s actions to be honest, just its rhetoric. I think if Russia wants to build up IRBM forces they were probably going to do so regardless.

My feeling and I think it’s at least semi-supportable based on the facts at hand is the treaty itself wasn’t doing much practically. The advantage of maintaining it, is it gives us geopolitical leverage/PR wins against Russia to hound them for violating it, meanwhile we likely could’ve satisfied our strategic goals without leaving the treaty. So basically it was another card in a deck to use to blast Russia for violating international norms etc. I think the “value” of this card was probably moderate at best, but getting rid of it benefits Russia to a small degree. I don’t think the treaty or our remaining in it seriously alter Russia’s strategic plans or actions.

I think the bigger question is “what comes next”, to determine really whether the Pentagon/Trump’s thinking ends up being flawed. If we withdraw from the treaty but don’t actually change any of our behaviors then it’s just a stupid PR stunt that helps Russia more than anything.

Always, the answer is the same: Trump’s impression of what it does for his own image. That, for him, is literally the be-all and end-all. Always.

Strictly for everyone’s interest, here are links to two New York Times pieces on this issue by Mikhail Gorbachev and George Shultz.

Pretty cool actually that the Times got them to write their articles in real time (or close to it).

The US already began development of a new nuclear-capable Ground Launched Cruise Missile in the just ended FY18 budget. From February Pentagon Confirms It’s Developing Nuclear Cruise Missile to Counter a Similar Russian One Development isn’t prohibited under INF just deploying the systems. At the time many believed it operated more as a threat to try and force Russia back into compliance than a serious plan to field one.

A lot of the press focuses on the nuclear aspect but the treaty also prohibited conventional systems in the range band. We’ve actually got a short range conventional ballistic missile system already in the inventory, the ATACMS (Army TACtical Missile System). It’s fired from the MLRS/HIMARS launchers. The range of that system pushed up to just a little shy of the INF range limits. A telling quote from the wiki link on the missile:

We’re currently working on an upgraded replacement ballistic missile for the launcher. Without INF the legal provisions of MTCR are no longer a limiting factor. I wouldn’t bet against the US fielding a conventional balllistic missile that INF would have prohibited within a few years of withdrawal.

You mean like the infrastructure currently developing the B-61 warhead replacement likely to fly on things like this?

Updating this thread:

Yes, this coupled with his continuation of other provocative anti-Russia policy is not good.

This;
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-46443672

Because this;

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-02/vladimir-putin-boasts-russias-unstoppable-nuclear-weapons/9500866&ved=2ahUKEwiX67DpnpzgAhXvUN8KHVjXD94QFjASegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2HgqYhJR8szPs_C9ox0nih

Russia built weapons violating land based range limitations and also designed them to evade countermeasures, both violating the treaty.
It wasn’t Trump, or even just the US. Canada and the UK backed it.
And its already been done.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.apnews.com/13bee012befd4f989ab9ae108d1ca729&ved=2ahUKEwjRj_vUn5zgAhXvY98KHYwjCJcQqOcBMAB6BAgJEAQ&usg=AOvVaw18d-SVlyACfnsrXkQ4pKkF

Err maybe not the UK but Canada and Nato in general

Is this the biggest pro-Russian move Trump has done to date? Russia no longer has to abide by the arms treaty, and it’s because of Trump. It’s perfect for Putin.

Trump bombed Syria when Putin said not to and warned of consequences! Sure, they are buddies. Not

The bottom line is what good is a treaty if the other side does not follow it?

You have to deal with Putin from a position of strength.

Which gave Trump the excuse he needed to cover getting out of a treaty he wanted to break himself.

He bombed the airbase after giving warnings so everyone could get out. Trump criticized Obama for telling future plans yet he did the same thing.

Planes were flying out of the base within hours of the bombing. Real effective, that was.

It allowed a path to get unified with Europe against the alleged non compliance from Russia, but of course it was to much to expect the needed diplomatic effort to come from the insulter in chief so Europe could join the US into pressuring Russia into compliance.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with Trump renegotiating weapons treaties with Russia, particularly given that China has become a factor in the time since the agreement was reached. We’re due for multi-lateral global weapons nonproliferation overhaul.

What concerns me is that this is another one of Trump’s “deals,” or one of his negotiating tactics. We’ve seen Trump negotiate, and he can’t do it for shit. Look at the government shutdown and look at his trade deal negotiations - they’re piss poor examples of how to get a deal done.

My fear is that Putin is going to ramp up mid-range missile production at a time when we’re clearly having strained relations with Russia and China, and we’re not exactly successful at North Korea denuclearization either. In nuclear armament terms, we’re dealing with a multi-headed hydra.

I think you have it completely wrong. Here is my conjecture: Putin has been trying to get out of the treaty for years and has indeed been nibbling at the margins (as the Obama administration noted). Now he has ordered his pal to withdraw, which will allow him to withdraw Russia while leaving all the opprobrium to Trump. Yes, this sounds like a typical conspiracy theory, but unless you can find a better explanation, I am going to go with this.

I disagree with this. It implies that Trump and Putin are on different teams.