# Trump’s new low (re: backstabbing NATO) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [February 12, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485 "2024-02-12T18:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/81 "2024-02-14T17:14:04Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, if Congress were to declare war, that would make Russia the enemy by definition, and giving Putin aid and comfort (by refusing to meet our NATO Article 5 obligations) would be treason, as defined in the Constitution, wouldn’t it? I think an argument could be made at that point, I’m not sure if it would be a slam dunk. Trump could claim he’s trying to prevent the unnecessary loss of American lives in a pointless war to obey a treaty that puts an undue burden on the US, etc. It’d be crap of course but could be enough cover that it’s not an obvious attempt to aid Russia. You might need evidence showing collusion with Russia or have witness testimony about Trump’s real motives. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/82 "2024-02-14T17:26:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, if Congress were to declare war, that would make Russia the enemy by definition, and giving Putin aid and comfort (by refusing to meet our NATO Article 5 obligations) would be treason, as defined in the Constitution, wouldn’t it? In war, surrender is always an option. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/83 "2024-02-14T17:41:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, if Congress were to declare war, Hahaha. But ok, I’ll roll with it. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > that would make Russia the enemy by definition, and giving Putin aid and comfort (by refusing to meet our NATO Article 5 obligations) would be treason, as defined in the Constitution, wouldn’t it? No, it wouldn’t be treason. It wouldn’t even be not meeting Article 5 obligations. Text of [Article 5](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm), bolding mine: > #### Article 5 > > The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, **such action as it deems necessary,** including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. > > Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . Member states are under no obligation to take any specific action, only such actions _as they deem necessary_. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/84 "2024-02-14T17:53:33Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > There was a story last week of a kid who killed his dad because his dad got vaccinated. If that does not convince you that [vaccines are bad for you](https://schumanchu.eu/html/l/l_00110hypocritical~oaf.html) I don’t know [what will.](https://schumanchu.eu/html/l/l_00094potty.html) > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > They could just be like Trump himself and use creative accounting. Denmark spends 2% on its army. It’s soldiers have the best cheese rations on earth. This already being done by all nations including, of course, the USA. If pension payments to veterans and their medicaid/medicare contributions as well as the inflated prices for military planes to hide the subsidies for Boeing in the civilian sector are part of the defense budget in the USA then the maintenance of the Autobahnen in Germany (needed for the transport of tanks, just ask Adolf) could count too. It is a nonsensical demand on Trump’s part, but that was clear from the beginning, wasn’t it? It always is when he opens his mouth. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Member states are under no obligation to take any specific action, only such actions _as they deem necessary_. But does tanTrump know this? Because if he knew and still said what he said despite of there being no obligation to act, it was a useless stupid dumb provocation. But in case he did not know, then _he_ was [useless, stupid and dumb](https://schumanchu.eu/html/l/l_00089superpower.html). And still is and will remain so till the end of his days, the sooner the better. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/85 "2024-02-14T18:09:26Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > But we’re in this mess because Republican voters let the fucker in, then covered for him, and continue to do so. Don’t you dare let the Republican establishment off the hook. That there are millions of idiots in the US is not a shock. And I’ll include plenty of non-Trumpers in that. But the overwhelming majority of the Republican establishment decided they’d take the win, whatever the cost. There were times they could have put an end to this. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/86 "2024-02-14T22:31:41Z")
Of course. Mine was a response to the idea that Obama’s brutally hilarious takedown of Trump, to his face, got us into this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/87 "2024-02-14T22:49:47Z")
Am I the only one who remembers Russia’s declaration of war on the US back in 2016? We’re already at war with Russia. We’re just not admitting it, for some reason. For those who don’t remember, Russia argued that their interference in the US election wasn’t a matter for international courts, because it was an act of war (an act which, for those who also don’t remember, Trump collaborated with). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/88 "2024-02-14T23:28:04Z")
If initial reports are correct, that the national security issue in the news is that Russia is launching a space-based missile system, the Dems should run nonstop commercials of this headline over Trump’s NATO comments: “I’d encourage them (Russia) to do whatever the hell they want.” ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/89 "2024-02-14T23:31:11Z")
I remember that war. [I had to walk to work for a week because I didn’t know when I’d be able to fill my gas tank.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Pipeline_ransomware_attack) ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/90 "2024-02-14T23:32:56Z")
A little more… > **[Senior US official warns of security threat amid reports of Russian nuclear...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/14/mike-turner-national-security-threat)** > > Republican House intelligence chair, Mike Turner, says Biden officials should declassify information about threat, while House speaker Mike Johnson says there was no need for panic > **[What we know about the ‘disturbing’ Russia intel roiling the Hill](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/14/house-intel-national-security-threat-russia-space-power-00141473)** > > The intelligence is related to Moscow’s weaponization of its orbital systems, one of those informed about its content said. > **[Officials sound alarm about new Russian ‘space threat’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/14/national-security-threat-mike-turner/)** > > Russia has been experimenting with ways to disable satellites, raising concerns that classified intelligence about a new weapon could indicate a strategic threat to national security. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/91 "2024-02-14T23:52:59Z")
Good thing that Trump gave us the Space Force!. All we have to do is have the Space Force! send a few Space Fighters! into orbit, and it’ll be all _pew_ _pew_ _pew_ and one big nuclear explosion. It’s what the Space Force! was built for. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/92 "2024-02-15T00:34:15Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > > [@jsc1953](#): > > > > We’re in this mess because Obama made fun of him at the White House Correspondents Dinner. > > I thought we were in this mess because NBC was paying him less than Christina Aguilera? Nah, the _real_ reason we are in this mess is because the NFL laughed when donald tried to buy the Buffalo Bills. > **[Donald Trump Pulled One Over on America, But He Couldn’t Sucker the NFL](https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-pulled-one-over-on-america-but-he-couldnt-sucker-the-nfl)** > > If Trump was worth what he said he was, he could easily have afforded the Buffalo Bills. He never even bid—but he did find the time to spread fake news before he dropped out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/93 "2024-02-15T00:37:25Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Could he possibly do something to get us kicked out of NATO?? Legally, I don’t think so. The issue came up when Turkey was acting obstructive. The consensus was there’s no process in the NATO treaty for expelling a member state. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/94 "2024-02-15T01:52:16Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > But I don’t think the US is automatically at war because a treaty says they are. The treaty is a pledge. The US would still have to follow it. It could come down to an interpretation of the second section of Article VI: _“This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.”_ Among other things, does “Constitution” in the phrase “Constitution or laws of any State” refer to the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress sole power to declare war, or the Constitutions of the individual states? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/95 "2024-02-15T02:10:55Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Among other things, does “Constitution” in the phrase “Constitution or laws of any State” refer to the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress sole power to declare war, Of course. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/96 "2024-02-15T03:06:56Z")
The thing is, Putin spent a lot of time in his Tucker Carlson “interview” talking about Poland. So, now we know who is next on Putin’s list. We have to re-elect Biden to give Ukraine a chance to maintain sovereignty, and to keep Europe safe from Putin’s attacks. If Trump is elected, he will give Putin free reign in Eastern Europe. That means no more assistance for Ukraine. Ukraine will then collapse. Then, Putin will bide his time and rebuild his military, and dig in, and launch an attack (eventually) on Poland. And the only reason he’ll do that is if he knows America won’t abide by our guarantees to NATO. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/97 "2024-02-15T03:44:24Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > If Trump is elected, he will give Putin free reign in Eastern Europe. Nitpick: [Free **rein**](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/usage-free-rein-vs-free-reign). ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/98 "2024-02-15T03:47:18Z")
You’re correct that it’s a nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/99 "2024-02-15T03:52:15Z")
Nitpick, but an accurate one. (Nitpicking is what we do here.) Oddly, even though “reign” is incorrect, it almost works there in a twisted, bitter sort of way… “Trump will give Putin free rein to reign.” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485/100 "2024-02-15T07:38:54Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > If Trump is elected, he will give Putin free reign in Eastern Europe. That means no more assistance for Ukraine. Ukraine will then collapse. Then, Putin will bide his time and rebuild his military, and dig in, and launch an attack (eventually) on Poland. And the only reason he’ll do that is if he knows America won’t abide by our guarantees to NATO. This is, oddly, buying into the TFG narrative that Europe “isn’t paying its bills” and forcing us to pay for their defense. Which is nonsense. A lot of NATO slid below the 2% of GDP goal for defense spending in the past couple of decades between the end of the Cold War and the attack on Ukraine. But then that whole invading Ukraine thing happened. Sure, it could be argued that some NATO members aren’t kicking up their defense spending fast enough, but others have gone into overdrive. Like Poland. Which is doubling the size of its army in response. Perun, unsurprisingly, has a video on that. > **[Polish military modernisation & why are they buying Korean tanks? -...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrbaAKZfjwg%2F)** > > Sponsored by World Of Tanks - If you're interested, use the following link to sign up: http://bit.ly/3UuHS1hIn the video I'm pretty sure I say you get the Ma... And there are two more reasons Putin won’t attack any member of NATO: the French and British nuclear arsenals. They’re both members of NATO and both have independent and survivable nuclear arsenals in the form of ballistic missile submarines capable of surviving any nuclear first strike and launching a retaliatory strike powerful enough to effectively destroy Russia as a country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-s-new-low-re-backstabbing-nato/997485.md?page=6)