# Trump Supporters are Flawed People **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345 "2016-11-10T10:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/181 "2016-11-10T21:35:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I haven’t said anything about appeasing anyone, have I? :dubious: True, listening, understanding, and empathizing aren’t the exact same thing as appeasing, but I am hard pressed to see a glimmer of light between them. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/182 "2016-11-10T21:36:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This “empathy” crap? > Been there, done that, doesn’t work in this case. > Broken record is broken, Bo, and giving it another spin ain’t gonna fix it. Feel free to stop reading my posts, then. No one forces you to other than yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/183 "2016-11-10T21:42:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > True, listening, understanding, and empathizing aren’t the exact same thing as appeasing, but I am hard pressed to see a glimmer of light between them. If Scott Farkus’s dog got run over by a car as he watched, you’d understand his tears and anger, right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/184 "2016-11-10T21:48:07Z")
Right up to the point where he called for the jailing of Clinton for getting his dog run over. Got no empathy for insanity. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/185 "2016-11-10T21:48:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If Scott Farkus’s dog got run over by a car as he watched, you’d understand his tears and anger, right? Yes. But then when he blames it on Hillary’s emails benghazi, continuing to humor him in any way is appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/186 "2016-11-10T21:49:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If Scott Farkus’s dog got run over by a car as he watched, you’d understand his tears and anger, right? If he walked over to you afterward, tears streaming down his face, broke your glasses, punched you and pushed you down, would you ask him politely why he thought that was a productive response? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/187 "2016-11-10T21:53:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, I’ve tried that. Pretty much the exact same phrasing, except even more patient with many. They weren’t patient enough to let me finish a sentence before spouting off more. I think I mentioned that sometimes there isn’t time around the water cooler or whatever to even try and counter things like this. Pick your battles. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Like you said, we have to listen. We have to understand. We have to empathize. And we need to shut up, because in doing that, we will never get a word in. I didn’t say that last part, just to be clear. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > In your answers, I saw several that if I were a sensitive conservative, I would consider to be condescending and patronizing. Aye; there might have been. I’m not a perfect person. And some comments, like the one about black people, set me off so that I see very little to be gained from trying to reason with someone. Past experience and all that. Not every belief or attitude that people have is reasonable, IMO. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I mean, it is hard to deal with someone who acts like a child without treating them like a child and then being considered patronizing. I agree; it is hard sometimes. But they are adults and have the right to act however they want, as long as they aren’t breaking the law. Thus far, acting childish is still legal. But so is being patronizing. If listening and trying to understand doesn’t create a mutual bond of any kind, then let loose and tell them in no uncertain terms what you think. Why not? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > They aren’t looking to understand me. They aren’t looking to understand the issues. They aren’t looking to get a better grasp on the world around them. No, some aren’t. Some people will not be swayed; we call them zealots or true believers or fanatics. Many people are closed minded, no doubt. In most cases, tho, it is difficult to tell who is a zealot and who is not without listening to them first. And writing off 50% of the population as “idiots” is not going to help identify which are zealots and which are not and more importantly, it is not going to win votes and win elections. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/188 "2016-11-10T21:53:48Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Trumpets now gleefully sign their correspondence with “The Basket of Degenerates”. You can’t win people over by condescending to them - it only pushes them away further and creates permanent enemies of your ideology. If you actually want the Democratic party to continue to exist and have any power at all in the future, your approach to such people needs to change drastically. You need to let them know that they are valued and appreciated members of society, and why a Dem candidate/policy better represents _their_ interests. I ordered my Nasty Woman\* t-shirt last week. I would like to know when the Republicans will let me know that I am valued and an appreciated member of society. Why does a GOP candidate/policy better represent _my_ interests? - Got it at Samantha Bee’s website. 100% of proceeds go to Planned Parenthood. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/189 "2016-11-10T21:55:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes. But then when he blames it on Hillary’s emails benghazi, continuing to humor him in any way is appeasement. I don’t recall making any comment about humoring anyone; could you quote where you think I said that? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/190 "2016-11-10T21:56:12Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > If he walked over to you afterward, tears streaming down his face, broke your glasses, punched you and pushed you down, would you ask him politely why he thought that was a productive response? No, I don’t think that would be my first response. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/191 "2016-11-10T21:58:29Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Good point. > > Also, I think it’s lost on more than a few posters that the way political candidates and public leaders show empathy and respect is to reflect back what they’re hearing by restating it as simply as possible and then honestly responding. Sometimes that response, when what they’re hearing is flat out wrong, dangerous or vile, must be a refutation, but it must be preceded by an acknowledgement of the almost always valid concerns underlying it. “Muslims must be expelled/Muslims are killing Americans” has to be refuted by any political leader committed to egalitarianism and religious freedom, but the underlying fears of terrorism and its use as a tactic by radical Islamist organizations must be acknowledged and validated. (And this is done by most liberal politicians, certainly has been by Obama every time he’s addressed the issue, certainly has been by HRC. In very similar words to those used by John McCain. And G. W. Bush.) > > But that approach fails if the recipient is not participating in good faith. Yes, liberals have to validate feelings. This is not a surprise to us. (Although the whining about it is a little shocking coming from the same group that loves to deride “safe zones” and “trigger warnings”. Just sayin’.) We also have to represent inclusiveness and reject bigotry. The validation is usually ignored because the rejection hurts. > > But we can’t give up the responsibility to refute fear and hatred. All we can do is work on the valid underlying concerns. Whenever we’ve given serious consideration or even lip service to vile or insane ideas, we’ve tended to normalize them and see them come into practice. Torture, “preventive war”, privatization of prisons and schools… It truly is dangerous to coddle nonsense, and it’s immoral to appear to consider violations of human rights without refutation. > > If answering that emotional concern but rejecting the awful “solution” they offer feels like contempt to some voters, that has to be a price we’re willing to accept. All very good points, **xeno**. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/192 "2016-11-10T21:59:36Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > 1. True to an extent (believe me, trust me!) but he also made a lot of promises: > > -Build a wall > > - Biggest tax cuts since Reagan > - Repeal and replace ACA > - Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on Congress > - Pro-life judges > - Kill the TPP > - Hiring freeze on all Federal employees > - Renegotiate NAFTA > - Cancel Paris climate agreement > - Stop all payments to UN global warming programs > - Defund Planned Parenthood > - Ban Muslim immigrants > - Suspend Syrian refugee program > - Cancel all unconstitutional Obama executive orders > - Stop and frisk nationwide > > 1. There’s a lot of spiritual decay in America. Consumerism doesn’t fill people’s needs. Outside of politics do they seem happy, content? Do they have good relations with friends and family? Do they seem like part of a community? 1. A lot of those are pretty easy to do and will be done. Some others are things where Trump talked out of both sides of his mouth (Planned P, banning all Muslims, etc) and one is probably even underestimating the relatively small fraction of Trump true believers in his national vote to think they really expect the most extreme versions of those statements. The bulk of his voters (who just thought HRC was worse than he) definitely don’t. The problem will be delivering end results, ‘jobs coming back’ and so forth. It’s not so much ‘renegotiating’ NAFTA (how big a change does it have to be to count?). It’s that the agreement isn’t actually much of the reason for macro trends in the economy, is in fact beneficial to the US in many ways, and so nothing you do with it will have huge positive impact. And TPP was dead anyway, with even more marginal impact. It’s not so much shifting economic policies in a more conservative direction either (where Trump agrees with conservatives, anti-trade isn’t conservatism particularly, it’s populism). Netting results is where it’s always difficult. Lots of people believed in Obama’s economic policies, but there’s a good deal of spin in saying the economic situation has turned out so well last 8 yrs. Perhaps better than it would have been with other policies, but obviously not wowing everyone with its fantasticness. Same is likely for other policies; the federal govt has limited influence on the economy. But again, if we don’t caricature Trump voters as little children compared to the wise and mature Clinton voters…they mostly already know no politician is going to transform their lives. That’s not the standard he’ll be held to, which is always the good news for lists of exaggerated presidential candidate promises. 1. I agree with that however would try to put it in more broadly palatable (a lot of people now are allergic to terms like ‘spiritual’) and general terms. I take it for granted most people don’t _really_ think of politics as a way to get what they basically need they couldn’t get otherwise. Some do, any generalization about 200 million eligible voters must have millions of exceptions. But most don’t. So what are they really looking for from the political outcome? I think that’s the place to start in understanding politics. Economic determinism is definitely not, nor IMO the extension of it which says only some sort of demonic possession (like ‘racism’, which has tended become kind of a postmodern version of the devil or witchcraft) overrides economic determinism. People vote for stuff like community _as they perceive it_, stuff like nationalism, respect for traditional values, etc. Or in opposition to those things. But if you put the things just in the language of one side (as in nationalism=racism, traditional values=homophobia and misogyny etc), the language can actually get in the way of understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/193 "2016-11-10T22:00:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But I bet alot of them will demonstrate their ignorance in the answer. I would not take that bet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/194 "2016-11-10T22:01:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t recall making any comment about humoring anyone; could you quote where you think I said that? I suppose humor is the wrong word, as that does imply condescension, and that’ll piss him right off. If we continue to listen, understand, and empathize at that point, then that is appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/195 "2016-11-10T22:03:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An example: what if there are fewer jobs but a more moral nation? How much economic loss is worth a better moral fiber? And why do you think you are qualified to judge that answer? Before I answer that question, I’d like to know what a better moral fiber is. And why you think you are qualified to make that determination. Because to me, a better moral fiber is one which views all people, whether man or woman, pink or brown, old or young, atheist or religious, Christian or Muslim, gay or straight, etc. as being equal and equally entitled to consideration. A better moral fiber is one which respects our planet and works to make it a healthier place for humans, other animals, and plants to live. A better moral fiber is one which assures that no one must go without food and shelter and healthcare. A better moral fiber is one which understands that we each have sovereign control over our own bodies. Do you agree? I am not sure how much economic loss is worth that better moral fiber. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/196 "2016-11-10T22:03:58Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I ordered my Nasty Woman\* t-shirt last week. There are an awful lot of ‘Deplorables’ t-shirts out there, as well - a lot of them worn by women. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/197 "2016-11-10T22:05:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I suppose humor is the wrong word, as that does imply condescension, and that’ll piss him right off. If we continue to listen, understand, and empathize at that point, then that is appeasement. And where have I ever written anything that suggests people do that? Look, the problem is that 50% of the country voted for Trump. Not all 50% did so because they are unrepentant racists, homophobes, misogynists, etc. Do you agree with that statement? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/198 "2016-11-10T22:12:11Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Mom: Yep, if Trump can’t fix the country then I hope he just shoots nukes until Jesus comes to us or we go to Jesus, because this world is the Devil’s. I’m willing to bet cash money these are not your mother’s actual words. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/199 "2016-11-10T22:13:44Z")
Look-I have been asking over and over and over again on these boards, for many months, for a sane, non-racist, non-“HillaryBengaziJail!!!” Republican to tell me why they believed in Trump enough to vote for him, even after knowing his background…and I would have an easier time polling Gay Unicorns for Christ. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/200 "2016-11-10T22:19:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And where have I ever written anything that suggests people do that? > > Look, the problem is that 50% of the country voted for Trump. Not all 50% did so because they are unrepentant racists, homophobes, misogynists, etc. > > Do you agree with that statement? In this thread, you said that we should listen, understand, and empathize. We pointed out that we already tried that. It seemed that you were trying to say that we needed to try it harder. Thats my point, at a certain point, if the other side is not acting in good faith, then it doesn’t matter how much empathy you throw at them, they are still going to kick you in the balls and laugh at you. Continuing to treat them in any way with the deference that you seem to be advocating for at that point pretty much is appeasement. Now, did the slightly less then 50% of the country that voted for trump vote because they were bigots? No. But some did. We need to acknowledge that some percentage of Trump supporters voted for him for exactly those reasons. I don’t know the percentage, but I hope it is small. I fear it is large. Some voted because they had heard so much about hillary, they thought she must be a crook. I would ask them what she did, and they would mutter some combination of foster, benghazi, emails, lewinski…, and insist that it disqualified her in any way for office. Some voted because they got their symbolic granddad (bernie) taken away, and felt the need to punish the DNC for it. Some voted because they want to see the country crash. They think it’ll be easier to rebuild from the ashes than to try to fix what’s wrong. They think that because they have never built anything before. I have had discussions with all of those groups. I have tried listening to all of those groups. I have tried understanding their concerns. I have tried being empathetic to their fears. They still don’t want to listen to anything they don’t want to hear. Look, I’m a white, straight, middle aged, land owning, business owning male living in midwest flyover country. To be honest the current set up is probably better for me personally. I don’t need to listen to the fears of these people. I am these people. I am one of the ones who will benefit in this regime. I just don’t want to benefit at the likely cost, and trying to explain that cost to my peers is virtually impossible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345.md?page=11)