# Trump Supporters are Flawed People **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345 "2016-11-10T10:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/41 "2016-11-10T14:49:26Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > (though he _did_ get a lot of women who didn’t automatically side with Hillary because vagina, as they were expected to). Women shouldn’t have voted for Hillary because of her snizz. They should have voted for Hillary because Trump is gonna offshore the actual running of the country to Pence, who thinks the Taliban are too permissive when it comes to women’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f04885/32.png) [@Jane\_Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Smythe)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/42 "2016-11-10T14:55:14Z")
Excellent post ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/43 "2016-11-10T14:57:20Z")
Ok, here is a basic proposition: In this country, in order to implement its ideas by governance, a political party’s candidates must first secure the votes to be elected. Are we in agreement that this is a generally safe statement, making room for some unusual edge cases? If we are, then let me suggest an obvious corollary: if a political party is unable to secure the votes for its candidates, then its ideas are much less likely to work, inasmuch as they are much less likely to be placed into operation. Anyone disagree with these, as generally applicable truths? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/44 "2016-11-10T14:59:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An example: what if there are fewer jobs but a more moral nation? How much economic loss is worth a better moral fiber? And why do you think you are qualified to judge that answer? This is almost a good point. People can weigh things differently. Maybe if one candidate was trying to improve the environment at the cost of the economy, and the other was doing the opposite, you’d have a point. The problem is, unlike most elections, there is _no point_ where Trump can be argued to be the superior candidate. None. Zero. Well, unless you really value white supremacy, in which case we’ve clearly left the premise of the thread (and gotten considerably closer to the truth of the matter). ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f04885/32.png) [@Jane\_Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Smythe)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/45 "2016-11-10T14:59:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There was no “right” move to win them, so let’s stop playing this game of “It’s YOUR fault you couldn’t convince them that Trump is an habitual liar who is lying to them to get what he wants, just like he has lied to everyone else in his lifetime of doing business.” Let’s quit pretending that we didn’t see what we saw at his rallies: White men holding up “Blacks For Trump!” and “Women For Trump!” signs. Let’s not forget the chanting carried out by them and _encouraged_ by Trump to jail his political opponent the instant he gains control of the White House. > Some people can be convinced…but some are hateful little idiots who think that Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are news reporters, and that “The Truth” is something that can be created by saying the same thing over and over again in a loud enough voice. Trump is their “inner animal” that they have been told to repress, and he has shown them that it is o.k. to release it, that it is o.k. to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable, that you can actually come out ahead by succumbing to your basest emotions and hatreds. He gave his supporters exactly what they wanted(but maybe not what they needed, considering that he can’t deliver on his promises), so those of you who claim that we approached them wrong: Please spell out what the “right” approach might have been, considering Trump already did the equivalent of telling them that he was going to take them all to The Big Rock Candy Mountain? Completely agree. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/46 "2016-11-10T15:02:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An example: what if there are fewer jobs but a more moral nation? How much economic loss is worth a better moral fiber? **And why do you think you are qualified to judge that answer?** (Emphasis added above.) _Equally_ qualified, being equally human. And there are some of us equally qualified humans who reject the twisted faux religious justifications for the anti-gay, anti-choice, poor-starving, environment screwing “morality” represented by the likes of Trump, McConnell, Ryan _et al_. And we get to exert our moral fiber, just like those mealy mouthed cravens do. We just use bigger words, consistent logic and (for some of us) more traditional and better grounded theological interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/47 "2016-11-10T15:02:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok, here is a basic proposition: > > In this country, in order to implement its ideas by governance, a political party’s candidates must first secure the votes to be elected. > > Are we in agreement that this is a generally safe statement, making room for some unusual edge cases? > > If we are, then let me suggest an obvious corollary: if a political party is unable to secure the votes for its candidates, then its ideas are much less likely to work, inasmuch as they are much less likely to be placed into operation. > > Anyone disagree with these, as generally applicable truths? Bricker… Does lawyer-mode ever turn off? The people you’re talking to are saying things that really aren’t that hard to understand. Please stop overcomplicating it, and engage with it. This has nothing to do with anything. Yeah, we’re in a democracy. Trump gets to push his agenda. We’re complaining that this is the case, because all of his ideas are fucking awful. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f04885/32.png) [@Jane\_Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Smythe)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/48 "2016-11-10T15:02:46Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > To the OP: I simply cannot believe than anything more than a microscopic group of Trump voters, if at all, would rather he start WWIII than leave without solving all problems. > Trump lost about 1 million votes to what Romney had in 2012 > Hillary lost 6 million. She didn’t convince her own people. > > Thinking like that is what got the Buffon-in-chief in the White House. The fact is, Hillary won the popular vote. More people in this country voted for her than for Trump. So she didn’t lose anything. If it weren’t for the electoral college, she would be president. And I believe, and have always believed that the EC needs to be abolished.It makes no sense in modern day America. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/49 "2016-11-10T15:05:56Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is almost a good point. People can weigh things differently. Maybe if one candidate was trying to improve the environment at the cost of the economy, and the other was doing the opposite, you’d have a point. The problem is, unlike most elections, there is _no point_ where Trump can be argued to be the superior candidate. None. Zero. Well, unless you really value white supremacy, in which case we’ve clearly left the premise of the thread (and gotten considerably closer to the truth of the matter). I didn’t vote for him, so I almost agree. But, in fact, there is a point in which I believe Trump offered a concrete plan, much more concrete than his opponent, and one I agreed with on the merits. His intention to appoint judges who applied the text of the Constitution, as opposed to “living, breathing” Constitutional principles, is in my view exactly the needed commitment from the President, and his list of Supreme Court candidates is in my view an excellent one. While Clinton did not supply such a list, I was quite confident that nominations she would make would be drawn from the interpretive school that believed judges had a stronger role in shaping policy than simply being umpires. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/50 "2016-11-10T15:06:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That in this country, you don’t get to decide what’s best, even though you are convinced that you know what’s best. > > You are factually wrong when you say, “I believe I know better, and can prove it.” Any such proof will involve you defining your terms in advance. You know what’s best for them only because you have arrogated to yourself the sole right to determine what counts as “best.” > > You don’t have that power. Neither do you. But that is just a very simple response, to be more accurate the actual point is that as citizens we have some power anyhow, \*\*and it does not stop just by voting. \*\* > [@Bricker](#): > > I did not support Trump. > > But I don’t think that makes me the one to tell those that did, “Shut up; I know better.” And yet, that is what I see what you are saying to **Budget Player Cadet** , only nicer. The OP is pointing at a mentality that in reality can not be justified, a prevalence of “lets break everything because the end of times is near” does demand that people that does have more experience and knowledge to tell them that they are indeed very foolish. To be a good citizen IMHO does require also to not sit down and be quiet in front of ignorance of that magnitude that does affect everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/51 "2016-11-10T15:09:59Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > (Emphasis added above.) > > _Equally_ qualified, being equally human. And there are some of us equally qualified humans who reject the twisted faux religious justifications for the anti-gay, anti-choice, poor-starving, environment screwing “morality” represented by the likes of Trump, McConnell, Ryan _et al_. And we get to exert our moral fiber, just like those mealy mouthed cravens do. > > We just use bigger words, consistent logic and (for some of us) more traditional and better grounded theological interpretations. Why do you think you are qualified to judge that answer on their behalf? No matter, actually. The actual question: no matter your belief, do you understand that as a practical matter you cannot force them to accept your judgement on their behalf? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/52 "2016-11-10T15:12:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You seem to be rejecting the obvious interpretation: they did not agree that Clinton’s clear, concrete plans would be helpful, or specifically the kind of help they wanted. > > Perhaps you should begin instead with this proposition: say to yourself, “I don’t actually know what they wanted, because I regard them with such open contempt that I have peremptorily decided that I know better than they what’s best for them.” > > Then, having humbly confronted your ignorance, you can begin your journey of learning and healing. We do know what they wanted. They wanted to “Make America Great Again!” The problem is, is that they do not know how to do that. They just want it done, and will vote for the guy that says he’ll do it. They don’t want any details, and they don’t want to have to work for it. They don’t want to vote for the person who actually has a plan on how she’ll do it. It requires actual work on the part of the people, it’s boring. It’s like taking weight loss drugs instead of proper diet and exercise. Yes, what you want is to “Make my belly thin again.” But one way will not work well and will kill you, and the other is actually healthy, but boring. That’s my contention, Hillary was broccoli, trump was fen-fen. How do you convince an anorexic not to take fen-fen? That’s the same question as to how to prevent a white middle class white guy to vote for clinton. And, that is basically what you are saying. Don’t talk down to the anorexic. You are just being contemptuous in saying you know what they need. They know what they want. They want the Fen-fen. Why do you keep insisting that they need broccoli? That will just turn them off. Then extrapolate that to realize that your actions are replacing my broccoli with fen-fen too. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/53 "2016-11-10T15:13:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And yet, that is what I see what you are saying to **Budget Player Cadet** , only nicer. No, no – it may be what you see, but not what I wrote. Remember these wise words: “Then, having humbly confronted your ignorance, you can begin your journey of learning and healing?” That’s not an admonition to shut up. It’s an admonition to learn what the Trump voters responded to as opposed to dismissing their concerns as flawed. If BPC has better ideas than Trump did, then his failure was conveying them in a way that resonated with Trump voters. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/54 "2016-11-10T15:17:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s my contention, Hillary was broccoli, trump was fen-fen. > > How do you convince an anorexic not to take fen-fen? That’s the same question as to how to prevent a white middle class white guy to vote for clinton. > And, that is basically what you are saying. Don’t talk down to the anorexic. You are just being contemptuous in saying you know what they need. They know what they want. They want the Fen-fen. Why do you keep insisting that they need broccoli? That will just turn them off. > > Then extrapolate that to realize that your actions are replacing my broccoli with fen-fen too. OK, let’s assume the truth of the above. Since you also agree that in order to be in a position of providing the desperately needed broccoli and doing away with the deadly fen-fen cocktail, one must win the requisite support, we have a dual problem: 1. Gain the support, and then 2. Push broccoli, pull fen-fen Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/55 "2016-11-10T15:19:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Bricker… Does lawyer-mode ever turn off? The people you’re talking to are saying things that really aren’t that hard to understand. Please stop overcomplicating it, and engage with it. This has nothing to do with anything. Yeah, we’re in a democracy. Trump gets to push his agenda. We’re complaining that this is the case, because all of his ideas are fucking awful. Is that really it? Because your complaints seem deeper than that. If you are simply bitching and moaning, then I’m happy to leave you to it. But your complaints seem more substantive than that: they appear to argue that no rational person could have any set of values and desired outcomes that made a vote for Trump logical. We’re in a democracy, and Trump gets to push his agenda. Is your complaint about the democracy or the agenda? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/56 "2016-11-10T15:21:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok, here is a basic proposition: > > In this country, in order to implement its ideas by governance, a political party’s candidates must first secure the votes to be elected. > > Are we in agreement that this is a generally safe statement, making room for some unusual edge cases? > > If we are, then let me suggest an obvious corollary: if a political party is unable to secure the votes for its candidates, then its ideas are much less likely to work, inasmuch as they are much less likely to be placed into operation. > > Anyone disagree with these, as generally applicable truths? In a free and egalitarian democracy (without shenanigans of voter suppression at the polls), where everyone has interest in educating themselves well as to the reality of policy proposals and their likely consequences, yes. In the current fractured environment, where people get their news from impenetrable bubbles in which they espouse and believe things that are categorically untrue, maybe not so much. Where people use their vote to harm others, really not so much. When people actively wish for other members of their society to be harmed by the actions of those who they wish to elect, defiantly not so much. Otherwise, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/57 "2016-11-10T15:22:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > In a free and egalitarian democracy (without shenanigans of voter suppression at the polls), where everyone has interest in educating themselves well as to the reality of policy proposals and their likely consequences, yes. > > In the current fractured environment, where people get their news from impenetrable bubbles in which they espouse and believe things that are categorically untrue, maybe not so much. Where people use their vote to harm others, really not so much. When people actively wish for other members of their society to be harmed by the actions of those who they wish to elect, defiantly not so much. > > Otherwise, sure. In the current fractured environment, which specific portions of what I said become untrue? As a reminder, I said: 1. In this country, in order to implement its ideas by governance, a political party’s candidates must first secure the votes to be elected. 2. If a political party is unable to secure the votes for its candidates, then its ideas are much less likely to work, inasmuch as they are much less likely to be placed into operation. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/58 "2016-11-10T15:24:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So again, we should lie to them? I realize these people resent the “elitism” of the left, but at a certain point the fact that there’s a clear intellectual divide here is just not something that can be ignored. Just stopping in to point out that this oft repeated meme is [not nearly so clear cut](http://college.usatoday.com/2016/11/09/how-we-voted-by-age-education-race-and-sexual-orientation/)as liberals would like to believe. Trump did win among those with high school education or less and some college (fully half the US population), but college graduates were a virtual tie (1/3rd of the US population). Hillary only won handily among post grads, which make up only 18% of the US population. FWIW ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/59 "2016-11-10T15:27:02Z")
> [@Jane\_Smythe](#): > > Hard to do. She was right: at least half of them are deplorable: they are bigots, racists, Islamaphobes, homophobes, poorly educated, ignorant, xenapobes, low information people who are full of hate and anger. > > How can we value such people? They are a blight on the landscape of a beautiful, free America. No we just want to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit. Many of us want that idealized 1950s life. Happy Days. We moved to the suburbs and left the big cities to you and your liberal ideas. Disaster ensued. There’s no bigger gap in wealth than in the big cities. So you come out to the suburbs and flyover country to impose your ideas on Trump voting America because you need constant validation and can’t stand to see us prosperous. If you truly believed in your own ideas, you would stay where you are and leave us alone. Are any you of liberals moving to Islamic countries? You aren’t Islamaphobic, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345/60 "2016-11-10T15:29:35Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > No we just want to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit. > > Many of us want that idealized 1950s life. Happy Days. We moved to the suburbs and left the big cities to you and your liberal ideas. Disaster ensued. There’s no bigger gap in wealth than in the big cities. So you come out to the suburbs and flyover country to impose your ideas on Trump voting America because you need constant validation and can’t stand to see us prosperous. If you truly believed in your own ideas, you would stay where you are and leave us alone. > > Are any you of liberals moving to Islamic countries? You aren’t Islamaphobic, are you? This is an absolutely useless and counterproductive post, wholly apart from its inaccuracies. Happy Days was great, because it was a sitcom. Real life 1950s were great for some, but shitty for others, and we as a nation have largely rejected the social norms of that time for good reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-supporters-are-flawed-people/771345.md?page=4)