# Trump taxes requested **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 4, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037 "2019-04-04T15:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/121 "2019-04-07T20:10:37Z")
> [@UnwittingAmericans](#): > > I just read the letter and Neal’s statement. I don’t see a FAQ in the letter and I couldn’t find one on the Ways and Means Committee website, unless you are talking about the bullet points in the letter itself. Well, my error! When I read the letter, this FAQ was attached as though it was one document: [link.](https://waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/files/documents/2019-04-03%20FAQs%20FINAL.pdf) I was totally puzzled why Neal would send a letter and a FAQ, but now I see some news organization combined them for their readers (I can’t remember which website I read it on). ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/122 "2019-04-07T20:18:21Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > If there is evidence or suspicion of a crime, we have a different branch of government specifically designed for investigation. Sure didn’t stop Congress from investigating buttery males like Ben Ghazi. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/123 "2019-04-07T20:24:58Z")
From the AP: [Chief of staff says Dems will ‘never’ see Trump tax returns](https://apnews.com/94d053425cdd485f86fb4d65eb464911) > [@](#): > > Democrats will “never” see President Donald Trump’s tax returns, said White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney on Sunday, as a new front opened in the confrontation between the administration and Congress. > > Mulvaney accused Democrats of engaging in a “political stunt” and wanting “attention” after the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, Rep. Richard Neal, asked the IRS to provide six years of Trump’s personal tax returns and the returns for some of his businesses. > > “That is not going to happen and they know it,” Mulvaney told “Fox News Sunday.” Asked whether he believe Democrats would ever view the president’s returns, Mulvaney replied: “Oh no, never. Nor should they.” Showdown time! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/124 "2019-04-07T20:50:00Z")
Here’s an angle: If the head of the IRS refuses to turn over these documents as legally required, that’d be grounds to impeach him. And his successor, if whoever that is tries the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/125 "2019-04-07T20:52:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Here’s an angle: If the head of the IRS refuses to turn over these documents as legally required, that’d be grounds to impeach him. And his successor, if whoever that is tries the same thing. The difference between “grounds to impeach him” and “will impeach him” approaches infinity, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/126 "2019-04-07T21:03:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Here’s an angle: If the head of the IRS refuses to turn over these documents as legally required, that’d be grounds to impeach him. And his successor, if whoever that is tries the same thing. It’s a law. It’s simply the law. If the IRS refuses, then whoever makes that call from the IRS should be arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/127 "2019-04-07T21:16:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Here’s an angle: If the head of the IRS refuses to turn over these documents as legally required, that’d be grounds to impeach him. And his successor, if whoever that is tries the same thing. Yes. As Matthew Miller observed today on Twitter: > [@](#): > > Matthew Miller‏Verified account @matthewamiller 7h7 hours ago > > **The worst part about this is how the WH isn’t even pretending the IRS will make a decision on its own, free from political interference. A total breakdown in the rule of law.** > > AxiosVerified account @axios > Acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney said on Fox News that Democrats will “never” get Trump’s tax returns. [https://www.axios.com/mick-mulvaney-trump-](https://www.axios.com/mick-mulvaney-trump-) > > > Axios @axios Mulvaney is proudly asserting that the IRS head is Trump’s creature, and that Trump is above the law. There is no good reason for Congress to simply let that pass. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/128 "2019-04-07T21:16:53Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > It’s a law. It’s simply the law. If the IRS refuses, then whoever makes that call from the IRS should be arrested. Yeah, at some point I could see a judge just holding someone in contempt if the judge rules that the law is as simple as it reads. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/129 "2019-04-07T21:31:11Z")
I read the law in question a while ago. I think I may have encountered it during a completely unrelated tax research project instead of looking for it specifically, but that’s not too relevant. It was quite clear that the two Chairmen of the committees in each chamber of Congress have the right to request absolutely anyone’s tax return. However, after doing so they must not disclose any information in it to the general public. However , I think people in general are overly optimistic about the kinds of things that are found on an actual tax return. You don’t report to the IRS every single detail about what’s on your returns - you provide summaries and occasionally there are times you need to file required statements when the amount of space on the forms is too small to fit what’s required by the form, but in general, the returns are only the very broadest of strokes. There is a little bit of detail you will get, and that’s who their employers are and what pass-through entities they are receiving income from. That all shows up on the return, associated with a federal taxpayer number (TIN/EIN, like an SSN), but seeing them there isn’t going to tell you the nature of their business (besides what you can tell from how the K-1 income is divvied up among the various types of income). Of course, if they can subsequently request that business’s return they can get more information about them, such as the other partners, but it still won’t tell you anything much about the details of the business. If they have real estate rentals they’ll tell you what addresses they have, but for other kinds of business transactions, there is no such requirement to report the sources of income and the identities of those to whom expenses were paid. A total interest expense will be reported, but no details of who the interest is paid to. The balance sheet will list how much debt they have, but not to whom it is owed. Although you are supposed to report debt from owners of the business separately, that doesn’t tell you which owner holds that debt. I’m not sure what people expect to find on Trump’s tax returns other than that he simply isn’t nearly as wealthy as he leads people to believe. That’s what Trump is really hiding, because if he has extra-legal business associations, it would be relatively simple to just not report them on his tax return, or to report what their legal facade was (ie, what was reported to the IRS). Without an audit of the return, you won’t have any idea whether any of the information is actually true with the exception of those few things reported to the IRS like W-2s and K-1s, and even for those, the documents may be based on false information and entirely made up and as long as it’s reported consistently the IRS won’t notice unless they audit everyone involved. Similarly, you won’t get any information on which charities were donated to. You might type all the information into Turbo Tax and it might generate a detail report that might be included with your return, but that doesn’t mean that in general people are required to report each and every donation. The vast majority of my firm’s clients provide us a list of contributions already added up, we go over the list to ensure they are all legitimate charities because some people like to include political donations on the list, and if everything’s good, we just type the bottom line number into the software. That’s all the IRS sees. And it’s like that for pretty much every other line as well. “Other expenses” on business returns will be broken out into types, but every individual expense won’t be listed. When people hear about how long some firm’s tax returns are, and there are some doozies in our office, it’s because they have a huge number of different K-1s each with several pages of detail, most of which is blank, or it’s because they have a huge number of properties and can only put 3 on each page plus they may need extra space to itemize all the “other expenses” by type, or it’s because they have a large number of transactions that require reporting because they are a day-trader, or any number of other reasons, but these don’t tell you what entities the businesses were giving money to, only the sources of their income, and then only vaguely. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/130 "2019-04-07T22:25:09Z")
What I find funny is the GOP claiming that a law can’t be used for political purposes. Or that it sets a bad precedent. Somehow that did not matter when it came to ignoring Garland for the supreme court. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/131 "2019-04-07T22:39:48Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > What I find funny is the GOP claiming that a law can’t be used for political purposes. Or that it sets a bad precedent. Somehow that did not matter when it came to ignoring Garland for the supreme court. Once an entity learns it will pay NO price for hypocrisy, it will employ hypocrisy continuously and without ceasing. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/132 "2019-04-07T22:55:49Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > What I find funny is the GOP claiming that a law can’t be used for political purposes. Or that it sets a bad precedent. Somehow that did not matter when it came to ignoring Garland for the supreme court. IOWRDI\* \*It’s okay when Republicans do it. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/133 "2019-04-07T22:58:02Z")
How would you be able figure out who leaked it? ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/134 "2019-04-07T22:59:49Z")
Exactly!# ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/135 "2019-04-07T23:00:34Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > What I find funny is the GOP claiming that a law can’t be used for political purposes. Or that it sets a bad precedent. Somehow that did not matter when it came to ignoring Garland for the supreme court. Or when they used the [exact same law](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a26243324/president-trump-tax-returns-house-democrats-ways-and-means/) five years ago to get tax returns, for blatantly political purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/136 "2019-04-08T01:05:35Z")
> [@UnwittingAmericans](#): > > I want a fucking showdown with a Supreme Court ruling in hand. IANAL, but while it seems on the face of the rule it is clear cut the IRS _shall_ provide them to particular members of Congress… what makes people so sure that SCOTUS will take that side? Sure, the usual suspects absolutely, but Thomas? Kavanaugh? Gorsuch? They’re partisan hacks. Will they be able to actually do it? Or do we just depend on _only_ Roberts being able to read and/or care about legacies and precedent? If this goes to SCOTUS, anything short of a 9-0 (or x-0 if someone was out sick) is very, very troubling. And if ordered by SCOTUS, I don’t know if I have enough faith in our system anymore that the appropriate person at the IRS would comply. It seems sucking up to Trump is easier than than following norms and traditions and laws. How do you make the IRS comply? Contempt? Can that be pardoned? Do you shut off their funding? What can one party who controls only one branch do when other government departments don’t look to them as having power? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/137 "2019-04-08T01:38:08Z")
> **[The IRS Tried to Take on the Ultrawealthy. It Didn’t Go Well.](https://www.propublica.org/article/ultrawealthy-taxes-irs-internal-revenue-service-global-high-wealth-audits)** > > Ten years ago, the tax agency formed a special team to unravel the complex tax-lowering strategies of the nation’s wealthiest people. But with big money — and Congress — arrayed against the team, it never had a chance. An interesting article about how the elite team of auditors put together by the IRS to tackle the biggest tax cheats has been systematically outgunned and destroyed by Republicans. Sure, there’s no chance that Trump is hiding something. Zeeeero. Fake news. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/138 "2019-04-08T01:46:43Z")
I used to think an announcement on the scale of “Reefer Is Legal” would be big news. Now I’m waiting for Republicans to declare that laws don’t mean shit, whatever they are, if you don’t like them. Thanks Republicans, for establishing anarchy. I sure hope you don’t regret it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/139 "2019-04-08T03:29:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [The Top 0.5% Underpay $50 Billion a Year In Taxes and Crushed the IRS Plan to Stop Them — ProPublica](https://www.propublica.org/article/ultrawealthy-taxes-irs-internal-revenue-service-global-high-wealth-audits) > An interesting article about how the elite team of auditors put together by the IRS to tackle the biggest tax cheats has been systematically outgunned and destroyed by Republicans. > > Sure, there’s no chance that Trump is hiding something. Zeeeero. Fake news. From the article: > [@](#): > > His experience was telling. The IRS’ new approach to taking on the superwealthy has been stymied. The wealthy’s lobbyists immediately pushed to defang the new team. And soon after the group was formed, Republicans in Congress began slashing the agency’s budget. As a result, the team didn’t receive the resources it was promised. Thousands of IRS employees left from every corner of the agency, especially ones with expertise in complex audits, the kinds of specialists the agency hoped would staff the new elite unit. The agency had planned to assign 242 examiners to the group by 2012, according to a report by the IRS’ inspector general. But by 2014, it had only 96 auditors. By last year, the number had fallen to 58. And this is why I’m the Chicken Little of SDMB - because we’re witnessing the transformation of American democracy to American oligarchy. This is exactly how oligarchies, plutocracies, and kleptocracies behave. This is even how the United States operated at many levels of government from the late 1800s until 1930. The Roaring 20s was a time of rampant wealth inequality, and in turn, rampant corruption, with Republicans of the day stuffing their stockings with tax dollars and using federal office as their own piggy banks. What’s more, just like then, most Americans were simply not concerned enough to do anything to stop them - because they were employed and in their view, as long as they could believe in the American pipe dream, then nobody had to be held accountable. That changed, but only in 1932, after nearly 4 years of extreme financial hardship. That is where we are headed, and I doubt anything can stop it from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037/140 "2019-04-08T07:04:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > From the AP: [Chief of staff says Dems will ‘never’ see Trump tax returns](https://apnews.com/94d053425cdd485f86fb4d65eb464911)Showdown time! Can we amend Mulvaney’s name on to the request? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-taxes-requested/832037.md?page=8)