# Trump & the WaPo (& various leakers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744 "2017-05-16T13:39:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/21 "2017-05-16T15:24:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But ISTM that the greater harm was done by the WaPo themselves, plus the leakers. Because from what I’m reading (including in the Post, which I unfortunately can’t definitely link because I’m over my monthly limit, but which is probably [here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/05/16/this-is-why-trumps-loose-tongue-has-compromised-u-s-security/?utm_term=.a598a374626e)), the main damage is not from the fact that the Russians have this knowledge but from the fact that the Middle Eastern ally knows that the Russians have this knowledge via Donald Trump. So by publicizing this fact, the WaPo itself is creating the damage. Having allowed The Donald to shoot his mouth off, intelligence services _have to_ at least let the Unknown Ally know. Because otherwise when they do find out everything, it’s not just ‘Cheeto blabbed - sorry’. Now it’s ‘Cheeto blabbed _and all the rest of us covered it up for days/weeks/months, thus depriving you of any possibility of protecting your information sources_ (like, for instance, choosing not to share them with us any more)’ Much better to take the smaller short term hit, and 'fess up at the start. Keeping the incident secret from Unknown Ally _forever_ is not really a viable game plan. And if Unknown Ally knows, the rest of us may as well ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/22 "2017-05-16T15:43:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > They may well also think that if he’s bloody fool enough to exercise that right, they should sharply curtail the quality of intel they share. Indeed. > [@](#): > > **U.S. Officials ‘Warned Israel’ Not to Share Sensitive Intel With Trump** > > U.S. intelligence officials reportedly warned their Israeli counterparts to exert caution in sharing top secret information with Donald Trump’s administration for fear of it being passed to Russia and then to Moscow’s ally and Israel’s arch-enemy, Iran. > > SOURCE: [U.S. Officials 'Warned Israel' Not to Share Sensitive Intel With Trump - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-warned-israel-not-share-sensitive-intel-trump-609782) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/23 "2017-05-16T15:46:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary, I am sure they think he does have that right. > > They may well also think that if he’s bloody fool enough to exercise that right, they should sharply curtail the quality of intel they share. But I’m confident they believe he has the right, and I’m confident the CIA believes May has the equivalent right. Everyone realizes the President has that legal power to release info but doing so unilaterally directly violates the agreement through which the information was gained. So maybe you are quibbling over the word “right”? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/24 "2017-05-16T15:56:41Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Having allowed The Donald to shoot his mouth off, intelligence services _have to_ at least let the Unknown Ally know. Because otherwise when they do find out everything, it’s not just ‘Cheeto blabbed - sorry’. Now it’s ‘Cheeto blabbed _and all the rest of us covered it up for days/weeks/months, thus depriving you of any possibility of protecting your information sources_ (like, for instance, choosing not to share them with us any more)’ > > Much better to take the smaller short term hit, and 'fess up at the start. Keeping the incident secret from Unknown Ally _forever_ is not really a viable game plan. > > And if Unknown Ally knows, the rest of us may as well How would the Unknown Ally ever find out? It might be that they would eventually find out that the Russians know about it. But it seems highly unlikely that they would know that the Russians found out via Trump’s blabbing. Which is the key issue here. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/25 "2017-05-16T16:04:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > How would the Unknown Ally ever find out? > > It might be that they would eventually find out that the Russians know about it. But it seems highly unlikely that they would know that the Russians found out via Trump’s blabbing. Which is the key issue here. Are you saying that the media should cover up for bad acts by this administration? Is that the proper role of the press in a free country? Don’t blame the arsonist, blame the fire alarm for alerting the fire department? That’s what this sounds like. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/26 "2017-05-16T16:10:24Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Are you saying that the media should cover up for bad acts by this administration? > > Is that the proper role of the press in a free country? They need to balance competing interests. IMO, if there’s really serious harm to the nation’s security from publicizing these things, then they should not publicize it. > [@](#): > > Don’t blame the arsonist, blame the fire alarm for alerting the fire department? That’s what this sounds like. More like, you went out of town for a long trip and forgot to lock your doors. Someone finds out about it and goes about publicizing in all available venues: “ **TERRIBLE SECURITY BREACH!!! AIRBECK IS OUT OF TOWN FOR A LONG WHILE AND DID NOT LOCK HIS DOORS!!! THIS COULD LEAD TO THIEVES ENTERING HIS HOUSE AND STEALING ALL HIS POSSESSIONS!!!** ” Very important to do this. Otherwise things like this would happen all the time. Better to publicize it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/27 "2017-05-16T16:17:23Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > And of course “the public” has the information needed to judge that. Right? No, but I’d say the public has some of that information. When the President decides to release intel that could damage a source, I want to believe that there has been a sober weighing of the value gained by the release as opposed to the loss of utility we suffer from damage to the source. Don’t get me wrong: I fully appreciate that a source whose information cannot be used at all is not a useful source. At some point, we must be able to use info we gain from such trusted conduits. But the decision to do so should be made with careful consideration. Now, all reports here are that the President shot from the hip. I am open to hearing contrary information, but as it now stands I (a member of the public) am hearing enough information to justify the inference that the careful deliberation I spoke of did not happen. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/28 "2017-05-16T16:18:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Everyone realizes the President has that legal power to release info but doing so unilaterally directly violates the agreement through which the information was gained. So maybe you are quibbling over the word “right”? No. I’d like a citation for the claim that “doing so unilaterally directly violates the agreement through which the information was gained.” How do you know this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/29 "2017-05-16T16:21:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why? Because there are highly skilled analysts in Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/30 "2017-05-16T16:23:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I’d like a citation for the claim that “doing so unilaterally directly violates the agreement through which the information was gained.” > > How do you know this? [WaPo:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html) > [@](#): > > The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said. > > **The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said Trump’s decision to do so endangers cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State.** After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and the National Security Agency. (my bold) Without access to the actual intelligence sharing arrangement it’s within the realm of possibility that this type of sharing is not violative of the arrangement, but I think the chance of that being true is remote enough to be disregarded. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/31 "2017-05-16T16:27:21Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Yes because there are people who think (with good reason) that Trump may accidentally start a nuclear exchange. This is not politics as usual, a narcissist with dementia has control of the US entire nuclear arsenal. Why would people want to bring Trump down? /s Interesting thing: my wife teaches 10th grade. Yesterday, she told me, she was discussing the NK nuclear issue, and the dangers of a madman like Kim Jung Un having access to nuclear weapons. And the kids asked “how is that different than Trump having access to nuclear weapons?” She had to struggle for an answer … 🙂 > [@Bricker](#): > > Because there are highly skilled analysts in Russia. It might follow from that fact that the Russians will eventually figure out whatever secret it is. OK. It does not follow from that fact that the country which originally provided this information will be able to trace the disclosure back to the US and Trump. The Russians have a very skilled intelligence service, and the mere fact that the Russians know something (even assuming the other country finds that out) doesn’t imply that Trump told it to them. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/32 "2017-05-16T16:28:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > More like, you went out of town for a long trip and forgot to lock your doors. Someone finds out about it and goes about publicizing in all available venues: “ **TERRIBLE SECURITY BREACH!!! AIRBECK IS OUT OF TOWN FOR A LONG WHILE AND DID NOT LOCK HIS DOORS!!! THIS COULD LEAD TO THIEVES ENTERING HIS HOUSE AND STEALING ALL HIS POSSESSIONS!!!** ” > > Very important to do this. Otherwise things like this would happen all the time. Better to publicize it. Please step up and accept your trophy for least appropriate metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/33 "2017-05-16T16:35:43Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [WaPo:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html) > (my bold) > > Without access to the actual intelligence sharing arrangement it’s within the realm of possibility that this type of sharing is not violative of the arrangement, but I think the chance of that being true is remote enough to be disregarded. Yes I admit I don’t have specific details about the agreement but my impression is that is a pretty standard part. From later in the same article: > [@](#): > > At a more fundamental level, the information wasn’t the United States’ to provide to others. Under the rules of espionage, governments — and even individual agencies — are given significant control over whether and how the information they gather is disseminated, even after it has been shared. Violating that practice undercuts trust considered essential to sharing secrets. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/34 "2017-05-16T16:38:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, but I’d say the public has some of that information. > > When the President decides to release intel that could damage a source, I want to believe that there has been a sober weighing of the value gained by the release as opposed to the loss of utility we suffer from damage to the source. From McMaster’s press conference, today: "In the context of that discussion, what the President discussed with the Foreign Minister was wholly appropriate to that conversation and is consistent with the routine sharing of information between the President and any leaders with whom he’s engaged… That conversation was wholly appropriate with what the expectations are of our intelligence partners. … I was in the room. The Secretary of State was in the room, as you know. Dina Powell was in the room. And none of us felt that this conversation was inappropriate." ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/35 "2017-05-16T16:43:43Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > From McMaster’s press conference, today: > > "In the context of that discussion, what the President discussed with the Foreign Minister was wholly appropriate to that conversation and is consistent with the routine sharing of information between the President and any leaders with whom he’s engaged… > > That conversation was wholly appropriate with what the expectations are of our intelligence partners. > … > I was in the room. The Secretary of State was in the room, as you know. Dina Powell was in the room. And none of us felt that this conversation was inappropriate." And if you believe that, I have some real estate on the dark side of the moon I’d like to sell you. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/36 "2017-05-16T16:52:49Z")
Yeah, because what is the worth of the word of a 3 star general with a reputation for scrupulous honesty, plus that of the Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, compared to that of an anonymous leaker? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/37 "2017-05-16T16:54:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I’d like a citation for the claim that “doing so unilaterally directly violates the agreement through which the information was gained.” I do not know if this is a rule or just a mutual understanding between governments: > [@](#): > > Officials said he divulged sensitive information about an Islamic State militant group (ISIS) plot relating to aviation security that a key ally had secured, without the consent of that ally. > > SOURCE: [U.S. Officials 'Warned Israel' Not to Share Sensitive Intel With Trump - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-warned-israel-not-share-sensitive-intel-trump-609782) So, it would seem, it is at the least serious breach of etiquette towards an ally. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/38 "2017-05-16T16:57:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, because what is the worth of the word of a 3 star general with a reputation for scrupulous honesty, plus that of the Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, compared to that of an anonymous leaker? All these people are under tremendous pressure to back up Trump. Remember what just happened to Comey. I don’t think it’s a slam dunk, but if I had to bet I would say Trump went over the line. Especially since it’s Trump we’re talking about. It’s not like he otherwise has a history of carefully deliberated action, and a good understanding of the implications of his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/39 "2017-05-16T17:01:03Z")
Don’t forget that the American Press Corps was kept out of this meeting, but that the Russian press Corps Tass, was invited to this meeting. They could have published this information. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744/40 "2017-05-16T17:21:46Z")
If this had been done by President Jeb Bush, Hillary Clinton or John McCain, I’d have been unperturbed. They are all experienced with intelligence matters and confidentiality. The Russia/US press thing would have been weird, but I’d generally assume that they knew what they were doing. If it was Mitt Romney, it could very well have been a mistake but a certain learning curve must be expected. Romney is not stupid, and one assumes that if he were president, he would want to learn. The problem with Trump is that his tweets have exposed him as entirely capable of spilling secrets to the Russians through stupidity or the need to brag. It is not possible to assume that he knows what hes doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-the-wapo-various-leakers/786744.md?page=3)