# Trump to defy SCOTUS on census citizenship question. How will this end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901 "2019-07-11T13:18:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/21 "2019-07-11T15:52:25Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > He will get away with it and the SC court will do nothing. If that’s true, look on the bright side: We can watch Bret Kavanaugh cry again as the Supreme Court is dissolved. No need for any interpretation of the laws when you have an emperor. Though I’m sure Trump would keep them around for window dressing. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/22 "2019-07-11T15:58:47Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I think it’s important to understand that the SCOTUS did not say in their ruling that a citizenship question could not be added to the census. They said it could not be added on the pretext given by Trump that they were doing it to protect voting rights. For this reason, Trump’s choice to issue an executive order does not run afoul of their ruling. IANAL, but I really don’t see how it doesn’t run afoul of their ruling, unless you refuse to accept judicial supremacy. If the Court decision was simply to advise the president and not declare his attempt the rational behind it constitutionally invalid, that’s one thing, but that’s not my understanding of the ruling’s force. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > However, there are very particular rules that apply to adding questions to the census. Oversight of these rules falls to (you guessed it) Congress. Trump apparently intends to attempt to ignore those rules. Oversight may fall to congress, but it’s oversight without teeth if you’re going to argue that the Court’s decision is simply advisory. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > He’ll issue his EO, litigation by the House will be immediately filed for an injunction to test the validity of his new efforts, the reasons for which are no longer even pretended, and the EO issue will make its way through the courts. Again. He’ll issue the EO, proceed with the census, and once he does that, it’ll be litigated legally and politically for years afterward, thereby causing a political crisis. I don’t think the judiciary is really blind to the effects of issuing an EO and proceeding with the census, which is one of the pillars how our republic functions. That’s why I disagree that the Court would embrace the idea that an EO in this case is legally valid under the Constitution. But I absolutely accept that this is consistent with Bill Barr’s interpretation of the Constitution. Barr’s already declared that, in his judgment, that the Court got it wrong. He wouldn’t be the first president to do that, but presidents’ responses usually involve going back and trying to win more political power, or finding other legal strategies that don’t defy the spirit of the Court’s decisions. What Barr’s actions are doing is essentially taking back the United States government back to the late 1790s when the limits of constitutional powers and the powers of each branch were nebulous. Worse, though, he’s using the nation’s census as the political football. And in doing so, he’s laying down the foundation for ongoing political crisis not just this year, not just next year, but for years to come. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/23 "2019-07-11T16:00:54Z")
The House has no choice now but to start building the case for impeachment, but they should do so chiefly on grounds that it has defied the Court. They can certainly throw in Mueller, Russia, Epstein to boot if they want, but it has to start with venerating the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/24 "2019-07-11T16:13:06Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The House has no choice now but to start building the case for impeachment, but they should do so chiefly on grounds that it has defied the Court. They can certainly throw in Mueller, Russia, Epstein to boot if they want, but it has to start with venerating the Constitution. They should, but they won’t because of the reasons outlined in this thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=877870](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=877870) Were the situation reversed, and say Obama had tried to sign an executive order ignoring a SCOTUS ruling, Boehner or Ryan would have started impeachment proceedings as quickly as they could gather their caucus. Pelosi doesn’t have the guts to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/25 "2019-07-11T16:17:54Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > IANAL, but I really don’t see how it doesn’t run afoul of their ruling, unless you refuse to accept judicial supremacy. If the Court decision was simply to advise the president and not declare his attempt the rational behind it constitutionally invalid, that’s one thing, but that’s not my understanding of the ruling’s force. IANAL either, but I disagree with your interpretation of the ruling’s force. The SCOTUS absolutely left open the question of whether or not a citizenship question could be added to the census. They ruled in a very narrow way, saying [only that it could not be added on the pretext given by Wilbur Ross](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/census-citizenship-question-supreme-court.html) (New York Times). By issuing an EO, Trump entirely sidesteps whether he needs a reason at all. > [@asahi](#): > > Oversight may fall to congress, but it’s oversight without teeth if you’re going to argue that the Court’s decision is simply advisory. I’m not arguing that, and I don’t see where you think I am. Neither is Trump making that argument. He and Barr are trying to render the decision irrelevant as it pertains to an EO. They may or may not succeed. > [@asahi](#): > > He’ll issue the EO, **proceed with the census** , and once he does that, it’ll be litigated legally and politically for years afterward, thereby causing a political crisis. I don’t think the judiciary is really blind to the effects of issuing an EO and proceeding with the census, which is one of the pillars how our republic functions. That’s why I disagree that the Court would embrace the idea that an EO in this case is legally valid under the Constitution. I disagree with the part where you say he will proceed with the census. Do you doubt the House will file a motion for preliminary injunctive relief pending a ruling on whether Trump’s EO is legal? Or that any reasonable court would deny such a ruling under the circumstances? If you’re going to assert that a court would deny such a motion, that’s an entirely separate discussion. \ ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/26 "2019-07-11T16:41:57Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The House has no choice now but to start building the case for impeachment, but they should do so chiefly on grounds that it has defied the Court. They can certainly throw in Mueller, Russia, Epstein to boot if they want, but it has to start with venerating the Constitution. Speaker Pelosi: if ignoring Supreme Court decisions isn’t grounds for impeachment, then WTF is?! Just pull the trigger on this already. We worked our asses off last year to give you this power. Now _use_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/27 "2019-07-11T16:49:17Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Could this be the final bun on the impeachment [sandwich](https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/high-hamburger-picture-id139953119?k=6&m=139953119&s=612x612&w=0&h=ouBgmY_XdcTzcFL7UrDSWGu0VavPtNTYngFdc9JZ1qQ=)? For comparison, here’s a photo of the impeachment sandwich that [the Republicans served Bill Clinton](https://previews.123rf.com/images/totento/totento1410/totento141000029/32446652-slice-of-bread-on-white-background.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/28 "2019-07-11T16:49:39Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Speaker Pelosi: if ignoring Supreme Court decisions isn’t grounds for impeachment, then WTF is?! > > Just pull the trigger on this already. We worked our asses off last year to give you this power. Now _use_ it. Yeah, CoNsTiTuTiOnAl cRiSis, as if that is an actual thing, and not just two words put together. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/29 "2019-07-11T16:56:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Speaker Pelosi: if ignoring Supreme Court decisions isn’t grounds for impeachment, then WTF is?! > > Just pull the trigger on this already. We worked our asses off last year to give you this power. **Now _use_ it**. How will this work, exactly? At the moment, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of impeachment in the House. What if Pelosi doesn’t even yet have enough votes in her own caucus to open an impeachment inquiry? Do you think she does? Why do you think she, Nadler, Schiff and all the rest are working so feverishly to carry out these proceedings to bring the narrative to the American people, and why Trump is doing everything he can to ignore/distract from them? No one else can pressure their representatives to vote for impeachment except their constituents. Are you ready for whatever wag-the-dog, distractive high jinx will happen next Wednesday, when Mueller is set to testify? Is that the day we attack Iran? Or will Trump just announce that Ivanka will be his running mate for 2020? No one is more in favor of impeachment/removal than me, but a failed effort at the wrong time will be worse by far than no effort at all. If impeachment fails in the House, who will you blame? Republicans? Or Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/30 "2019-07-11T18:00:43Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > How will this work, exactly? > > At the moment, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of impeachment in the House. > > What if Pelosi doesn’t even yet have enough votes in her own caucus to open an impeachment inquiry? Do you think she does? The vote to impeach and send it to the Senate wouldn’t have to take place tomorrow, but even if it did, I think _this_ would be a fight worth having win, lose, or draw. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Why do you think she, Nadler, Schiff and all the rest are working so feverishly to carry out these proceedings to bring the narrative to the American people, and why Trump is doing everything he can to ignore/distract from them? No one else can pressure their representatives to vote for impeachment except their constituents. I wasn’t necessarily eager to bring impeachment charges against the president because it would have been, in my view, simply re-litigating the Mueller investigation, and the entire ordeal involves lots of details that have escaped our attention. There’s no question that what Trump did was even worse than Watergate. There’s no question that Trump cheats to win, but the public seems to have largely shrugged it off. But Trump is much, much farther down the football field now, and while there is no way to know how they will respond to concerns about the separation of powers, there comes a point when we can’t worry about that, because it’s clear that he’s tearing the law and the constitution to shreds, and it’s something that a House majority, as impotent as it might be, can’t just sit by and watch. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Are you ready for whatever wag-the-dog, distractive high jinx will happen next Wednesday, when Mueller is set to testify? Is that the day we attack Iran? Or will Trump just announce that Ivanka will be his running mate for 2020? > > No one is more in favor of impeachment/removal than me, but a failed effort at the wrong time will be worse by far than no effort at all. > > If impeachment fails in the House, who will you blame? Republicans? Or Democrats? We have to defend ourselves. Doing nothing to stop him is worse than trying to stop him and failing. I agree that they probably need to make an effort to sell that to the American people, but the specter of failure shouldn’t be a reason to avoid impeachment. There’s no more reason to wait. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/31 "2019-07-11T18:22:37Z")
[ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-expected-end-fight-add-citizenship-question-census/story?id=64262805): > [@](#): > > President Donald Trump is expected to announce later Thursday he is backing down from his effort to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and will instead take executive action that instructs the Commerce Department to survey the American public on the question through other means, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/32 "2019-07-11T18:25:33Z")
What a weak, low energy response from the stable genius! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/33 "2019-07-11T18:27:50Z")
He bravely ran away. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/34 "2019-07-11T18:27:58Z")
Wow — close call. I was literally just starting to write letters to my congresscritters, urging them that impeachment time had finally arrived. (I’ve been against it previously, for the practical reasons asahi has well explained). But, as others have said, some of the damage has already been done (in terms of making an undercount more likely, due to public uncertainty and confusion). ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/35 "2019-07-11T18:30:15Z")
It’s Trump. He’s going to change his mind as soon as someone on Fox News disapproves this. This isn’t over until the census is done. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/36 "2019-07-11T18:32:57Z")
I’m not convinced he’s done with the census; I’ll believe it when I see it. But hopefully, it could be that he decided that he’ll pick another battle, another time. This won’t be the last time he threatens the Constitution or the institutional framework that holds it together. If nothing else, he made it clear that he’s not afraid to push to see what he can get away with. I have no idea whether an impeachment over this would have succeeded, but it would have exposed him to a different kind of risk. The Mueller thing is kinda baked into the cake at this point, but I think (I would like to think) that Americans might be less inclined to ignore explicit, obvious threats to the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/37 "2019-07-11T18:34:04Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Wow — close call. Was it though? Has the orange fucking moron every really shown himself to have a spine? Spite, sure. But having a spine requires the sort of strength of character that he has never had in his worthless life. I can’t wait until the presidential debates where either Biden punches him in the mouth or Harris makes him cry in impotent rage. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/38 "2019-07-11T18:34:16Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-expected-end-fight-add-citizenship-question-census/story?id=64262805): So NBC’s sources are shit? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/39 "2019-07-11T18:34:38Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It’s Trump. He’s going to change his mind as soon as someone on Fox News disapproves this. This isn’t over until the census is done. I think this is a distinct possibility. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/40 "2019-07-11T18:37:37Z")
Assuming Trump does back off, what’s interesting to me is how it’s an implicit admission that they DON’T have a good reason for the change (duh) — that the reason found on that hard drive is accurate. Which is itself a subversion of democracy. In other words, it’s sort of a catch-22. Whatever Trump did would be some sort of attempt to rig/defy the system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901.md?page=3)