# Trump to defy SCOTUS on census citizenship question. How will this end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901 "2019-07-11T13:18:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/41 "2019-07-11T18:53:35Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Assuming Trump does back off, what’s interesting to me is how it’s an implicit admission that they DON’T have a good reason for the change (duh) — that the reason found on that hard drive is accurate. Which is itself a subversion of democracy. > > In other words, it’s sort of a catch-22. Whatever Trump did would be some sort of attempt to rig/defy the system. I don’t think abandoning the lawsuit is an “implicit admission” at all. It could be as simple as: we don’t have enough time to see this case through before we have to print census forms and mail them out, so the whole exercise would be wasted, even if we eventually triumphed in court. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/42 "2019-07-11T19:01:29Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/43 "2019-07-11T19:03:11Z")
Really? They’ve had, what, a full week to come up with some other (false) reason? If they could have thought of one, and cone up with (fraudulent) evidence that it was their reason all along, they would have. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/44 "2019-07-11T19:07:30Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Really? They’ve had, what, a full week to come up with some other (false) reason? If they could have thought of one, and cone up with (fraudulent) evidence that it was their reason all along, they would have. In addition to being morally bankrupt, dishonest, and dishonorable, these folks (Trump administration officials who haven’t already resigned or been fired) are just massively, incredibly incompetent. Thankfully, for the most part. Incompetent in management, incompetent in execution, incompetent in planning, incompetent in justifying and explaining… everything. The only things they’re good at are the things that essentially require incompetence – i.e. making migrant families suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/45 "2019-07-11T19:11:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So NBC’s sources are shit? More likely that Trump changed his mind some time today (if it transpires that he doesn’t take executive action). To quote from the ABC article: > [@](#): > > As recently as Thursday morning, administration officials had been repeatedly suggested the president would take executive action calling for the question be added to the census. It was not immediately clear when and why the final decision was made not to move forward with that plan. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/46 "2019-07-11T19:11:29Z")
Well put, iiandyiiii ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/47 "2019-07-11T19:33:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So NBC’s sources are shit? It’s more likely that this Administration is shit because they can’t plan for breakfast even if they are given a box of cereal and a carton of milk. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/48 "2019-07-11T19:53:21Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Really? They’ve had, what, a full week to come up with some other (false) reason? If they could have thought of one, and cone up with (fraudulent) evidence that it was their reason all along, they would have. It doesn’t really matter what Trump admits to or not; the evidence on the infamous hard drive is overwhelmingly clear what the real motive was. Even if we didn’t have the hard drive, though, it’s extraordinary the degree to which the president has involved the Executive in a function that is Constitutionally reserved for Congress – it’s Congress that is charged with the responsibilities of establishing the guidelines for taking the census and establishing similar rules for apportionment, not the President. The president is supposed to assist congress, not come up with his own guidelines. Ignoring the Court’s ruling would have been the icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/49 "2019-07-11T19:55:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The vote to impeach and send it to the Senate wouldn’t have to take place tomorrow, but even if it did, I think _this_ would be a fight worth having win, lose, or draw. **asahi** , if you’re going to continue to respond to posts I’ve made that weren’t directed to you – and that’s fine – please at least do me the courtesy of reading my posts more carefully. I did not say or even imply the vote to _ **impeach** _ and send to the Senate should take place tomorrow. I asked if we know whether Pelosi has the votes to even open an impeachment _ **inquiry** _. Do we know this? I don’t. I only know what I said above: As of now, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of _ **impeachment** _. If the numbers are the same just to open an _ **inquiry** _, do you still wonder why it hasn’t happened? > [@asahi](#): > > I wasn’t necessarily eager to bring impeachment charges against the president because it would have been, in my view, simply re-litigating the Mueller investigation, and the entire ordeal involves lots of details that have escaped our attention. There’s no question that what Trump did was even worse than Watergate. There’s no question that Trump cheats to win, but the public seems to have largely shrugged it off. But Trump is much, much farther down the football field now, and while there is no way to know how they will respond to concerns about the separation of powers, there comes a point when we can’t worry about that, because it’s clear that he’s tearing the law and the constitution to shreds, and it’s something that a House majority, as impotent as it might be, can’t just sit by and watch. > > We have to defend ourselves. Doing nothing to stop him **is worse than trying to stop him and failing**. On this point, we disagree. And again, I despise the rat bastard currently occupying the Oval, advocated for his impeachment from Day 1. I understand the sense of helplessness and frustration as well as anyone in this thread. I just think that whatever is done must be effective – or we’ll have 4 more years of it. \ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/50 "2019-07-11T19:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **HurricaneDitka** : > > I don’t think abandoning the lawsuit is an “implicit admission” at all. It could be as simple as: we don’t have enough time to see this case through before we have to print census forms and mail them out, so the whole exercise would be wasted, even if we eventually triumphed in court. They can’t get it through the courts and get new forms printed in a decade? If there were actually some good reason for wanting the question on the census, then if they couldn’t get it this cycle, they’d still want it next cycle. But there’s not a good reason. They wanted it because, with the demographics as they now stand, it would give them a partisan advantage this cycle. It would _probably_ also give them a partisan advantage in 2030, but they’re not sure about that, and if the demographics shift in such a way that it’d be against their partisan interest, they don’t want it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/51 "2019-07-11T20:02:12Z")
Obviously this is now moot, but I’m gonna reply anyway: > [@Aspenglow](#): > > How will this work, exactly? > > At the moment, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of impeachment in the House. > > What if Pelosi doesn’t even yet have enough votes in her own caucus to open an impeachment inquiry? Do you think she does? I agree that she probably doesn’t. The “problem solvers caucus” (haha), which includes 30 Dems, will probably be almost unanimously against it. The point is, get them on record against it. This is one of the frustrating things about politics: the damn shadowboxing that happens when you know a bill (or whatever) is being blocked by intraparty opposition, but you don’t know where the resistance is coming from because there’s never a vote. Have a vote, then we can light up the phones of the Congresscritters voting the wrong way. This isn’t rocket science. > [@](#): > > Why do you think she, Nadler, Schiff and all the rest are working so feverishly to carry out these proceedings to bring the narrative to the American people Narrative? _What_ narrative? They think the public’s following their every move, but practically nobody hears a goddamn thing about what they’re doing. They’ve completely lost sight of what the news looks like to Americans who don’t have Fox or CNN running all day in their offices. > [@](#): > > No one else can pressure their representatives to vote for impeachment except their constituents. See above. When you don’t even know if you need to call, you probably don’t bother. > [@](#): > > No one is more in favor of impeachment/removal than me, but a failed effort at the wrong time will be worse by far than no effort at all. I keep hearing this. I’ve yet to understand it. > [@](#): > > If impeachment fails in the House, who will you blame? Republicans? Or Democrats? Well first of all, what do you mean? Fails at what point in the process? The first vote should be to refer to the Judiciary Committee the question of whether disregarding a Supreme Court ruling is an impeachable offense. If that fails, we take names and light up the phones of the Dems who voted against it. If they get deluged with calls, but Pelosi never calls another vote, then I will blame Pelosi. If there’s a second vote, and it fails, I blame it on the Dems who voted against it. Why? See the “Was the Democratic Party always such a spineless shitshow?” thread. You know the bad guys are going to be the bad guys, and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it in between elections. But I expect the people who are supposedly on _my_ team to _act_ like it, instead of being a spineless shitshow. And I and like-minded people may be able to DO something about them; we aren’t going to move any Congressional Republicans. Might as well just regard them as a force of nature until election time rolls around again. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/52 "2019-07-11T20:36:11Z")
Looks like it was option 3 after all. My guess is that it wasn’t Trump’s idea to back down. I think it’s likely that someone, possibly McConnell, told him not to continue on his planned course of action. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/53 "2019-07-11T20:36:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Obviously this is now moot, but I’m gonna reply anyway: Not entirely moot. I’m glad you responded. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I agree that she probably doesn’t. The “problem solvers caucus” (haha), which includes 30 Dems, will probably be almost unanimously against it. But do you know why? You’ve continually made the assumption that all Dems should think as we do: That the need to impeach Trump is obvious. As you’ve pointed out further on in your own post, it isn’t. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > The point is, get them on record against it. And do you understand that’s exactly what their _constituents_ want? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is one of the frustrating things about politics: the damn shadowboxing that happens when you know a bill (or whatever) is being blocked by intraparty opposition, but you don’t know where the resistance is coming from because there’s never a vote. I can tell you exactly where the resistance is. It’s from those red districts that sent new Dems to DC. They wanted a change – but not necessarily impeachment. [Here](https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730697885/poll-support-for-impeachment-hearings-grows-but-americans-split-on-way-forward) (NPR) is the most recent information I can find on how Americans are split on how to proceed. What it makes clear is that Pelosi’s strategy is working. Just not as fast as any of us would like. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Have a vote, then we can light up the phones of the Congresscritters voting the **wrong way**. This isn’t rocket science. Wrong way… according to you and me. Not necessarily to the constituents of those who are presently against moving forward with impeachment. And for obvious reasons, those “Congresscritters” won’t care what you and I are telling them. They will only care what their own constituents are telling them. You know; the ones that sent them to Washington. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Narrative? _What_ narrative? I believe Pelosi’s strategy is working. As you go on to say below, it is taking a painful amount of time because it _is_ hard to break through in the news cycle, and people don’t live in the news all day. They’re having to work too hard and long just to keep their heads above water, and that keeps them from paying attention. I’d submit that’s part of the Republican strategy. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > They think the public’s following their every move, but practically nobody hears a goddamn thing about what they’re doing. They’ve completely lost sight of what the news looks like to Americans who don’t have Fox or CNN running all day in their offices. See above. When you don’t even know if you need to call, you probably don’t bother. I keep hearing this. I’ve yet to understand it.Well first of all, what do you mean? Fails at what point in the process? They know the public is not following their every move. Turning public opinion is like changing the direction of a rudderless cruise ship. Takes a lot of effort and time. And they’re also doing battle daily against the Fox “News” machine. Pretty choppy waters. Nevertheless, the ship is turning. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > The first vote should be to refer to the Judiciary Committee the question of whether disregarding a Supreme Court ruling is an impeachable offense. If that fails, we take names and light up the phones of the Dems who voted against it. What basis should they use now, since Trump has backed off his position to disregard a SCOTUS ruling? As for “lighting up the phones,” I’d refer you back to what I said earlier: Those Congressional Dems don’t care what you or I think. They care what the constituents who voted them into office think. It’s those folks who must be persuaded. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > If they get deluged with calls, but Pelosi never calls another vote, then I will blame Pelosi. > > If there’s a second vote, and it fails, I blame it on the Dems who voted against it. Why? See the “Was the Democratic Party always such a spineless shitshow?” thread. You know the bad guys are going to be the bad guys, and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it in between elections. But I expect the people who are supposedly on _my_ team to _act_ like it, instead of being a spineless shitshow. The Democratic “team” is widely diverse. Like you, I can hardly understand anyone who regards themselves as a progressive or a Democrat who _isn’t_ in favor of impeachment. But according to the vote counts I keep citing, we’re in the minority for the time being. If you’re saying the only people who can be on “your team” are people who think like you, then I’m afraid you’re destined to remain in the minority for quite awhile. It’s not a matter of spine. It’s a matter of reality. I will ask again: How should Pelosi overcome a 79-156 minority in favor of impeachment, other than to continue to do what she’s already been doing – a strategy that appears to be working? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > And I and like-minded people may be able to DO something about them; we aren’t going to move any Congressional Republicans. Might as well just regard them as a force of nature until election time rolls around again. Right now, I’d settle for being able to move Congressional Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/54 "2019-07-11T20:40:46Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Looks like it was option 3 after all. My guess is that it wasn’t Trump’s idea to back down. I think it’s likely that someone, possibly McConnell, told him not to continue on his planned course of action. And probably only because McConnell had an intervention from some Senate Republicans who told him in no uncertain terms “I did not blow serious political capital to get Kavanaugh on the bench only to have your buddy nullify the Supreme Court! Tell him to back off or when we get the paperwork from Nancy, we vote to convict!” 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/55 "2019-07-11T20:49:08Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > And probably only because McConnell had an intervention from some Senate Republicans who told him in no uncertain terms “I did not blow serious political capital to get Kavanaugh on the bench only to have your buddy nullify the Supreme Court! Tell him to back off or when we get the paperwork from Nancy, we vote to convict!” > > 🆒 I suspect this is horrifyingly close to the truth. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/56 "2019-07-11T21:01:07Z")
Trump speaking about census soon - [White House live feed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bSj7EJ4W3s). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/57 "2019-07-11T21:07:24Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > And probably only because McConnell had an intervention from some Senate Republicans who told him in no uncertain terms “I did not blow serious political capital to get Kavanaugh on the bench only to have your buddy nullify the Supreme Court! Tell him to back off or when we get the paperwork from Nancy, we vote to convict!” > > 🆒 You guys have such vivid imaginations 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/58 "2019-07-11T21:12:01Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Trump speaking about census soon - [White House live feed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bSj7EJ4W3s). Well, it was _supposed_ to be 5pm ET. Maybe Donald doesn’t like “backing down”… ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/59 "2019-07-11T21:17:10Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Well, it was _supposed_ to be 5pm ET. Maybe Donald doesn’t like “backing down”… It was probably time for his 2 o’clock feeding and he threw a tantrum when they tried to give him the bottle. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-to-defy-scotus-on-census-citizenship-question-how-will-this-end/836901/60 "2019-07-11T21:17:46Z")
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