# Trump voters: explain yourselves **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699 "2016-09-24T03:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/121 "2016-09-25T16:02:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I would have preferred almost any alternative to Trump, but:[ol] > [li]He’s not Hillary[/li][li]He’s not Hillary[/li]…\ > [/ol] In this spirit, a question for this and other Trump voters: > [@](#): > > **Specifically what damage do you expect Hillary to do to the country in four years?** Keep it specific. Keep out “she lies,” she’s wooden, strident, all the personal things you don’t like about her. I’m talking only about policy and what she could actually DO that would damage the USA in your opinion. STAY ON TOPIC. DO NOT DEVIATE FROM MY QUESTION. KEEP IT SPECIFIC. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS (we’ve heard all those already). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/122 "2016-09-25T16:07:48Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU > > In other words, don’t expect your puny facts to convert the dedicated conservative. > > Check out the ‘comments’ section. If there was ever an example of people sticking their fingers their ears, it’sright there, in which various mooks a) flatly claim the chart is complete bullshit (without evidence); b) that it unfairly targets more Republicans than Democrats (missing the point that it represents people who have run for President or VP; c) that Politifact is some sort of false-flag operation funded by George Soros (again without a shred of evidence). I’d say (d): Politifact tends to apply harsher standards to Republicans than to Democrats. That is, a slip of the tongue – say, attributing a statement to the “Iraq Study Group,” instead of the “Iraq Survey Group,” – is rated “False.” It was uttered by a Republican, and was an absolutely true statement about the Iraq Survey Group. The Republican said it was the “Iraq Study Group,” and got “False.” OK. I can live with that. The standard is high, but technically, the statement was False, and they rated it false. But a Planned Parenthood ad that claimed “Republican candidate [JH] voted to criminalize abortion for rape victims,” was rated Half True. But as they acknowledge in the discussion, the bill JH voted for would not result in criminal charges for rape victims who procure abortions. Only abortion providers would have been criminally liable, and then only when the abortion was after the 20th week. The Planned Parenthood statement is not “Half True.” It’s false. Now, you can perhaps make an argument that a generous reading of it has some relation to the truth: the bill involved some criminal penalties for some abortion-related actions. But it’s pretty clear to me that the same type of balancing was not applied in both rating decisions. I don’t mind a strict assessment of the truth of statements; I don’t mind a lenient assessment that targets only the most unambiguous lies as False. In my view, however, Politifact applies two different standards, each defensible on their own but clearly not harmonious with each other. And the choice of which standard to apply reliably correlates to the political leaning assisted by the finding. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/123 "2016-09-25T16:22:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I appreciate it, but that’s way too much for a Facebook post. People’s eyes will just glaze over. If they were data nerds, I wouldn’t have to worry about them voting Trump. > > It even took me a few seconds to find Clinton in all that. And you only have as long as they scroll the page. > > I’m basically talking one of those political ad images. That graphic lists 20 politicians. Would it be better with just eight names or so? The superfluous lines can be deleted readily with any image processing program. (Heck, I’d even volunteer to do it.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/124 "2016-09-25T16:32:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I would have preferred almost any alternative to Trump, but:[ol] > [li]He’s not Hillary[/li][li]He’s not Hillary[/li][li]We can always hope he dies soon after the inauguration (or even that the “he doesn’t really want to be president, and he’ll resign once he wins” rumor is true).[/li][li]Hopefully there are enough checks and balances that even an incompetent clown as president can’t do too much damage.[/li][/ol] So what? So what? Not a chance. There aren’t. He gets elected, you can expect a worldwide Great Depression, multiple wars, and the more or less permanent crippling of the US as a world power. The idea that Hillary is some great threat that makes him a better alternative is ridiculous. She’s a boring, bland standard issue corporatist who outside of being a woman will be completely unremarkable as a President. She’s certainly not the supervillain the right loves to pretend she is. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/125 "2016-09-25T17:11:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If they had morals and standards they wouldn’t be Republicans. > > And calls for people to “assimilate and become productive members of society” are just standard victim blaming and demonization. It gets hauled out about every group that gets targeted as “Them”; speeches about how “They” are lazy and “They” won’t assimilate. > > So of course we have to “encourage” them with lots of beatings and killings. That’s how such arguments always end up. If Trump wins it will be, in large part, thanks to crap like that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/126 "2016-09-25T17:23:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …The Planned Parenthood statement is not “Half True.” It’s false. Now, you can perhaps make an argument that a generous reading of it has some relation to the truth: the bill involved some criminal penalties for some abortion-related actions. But it’s pretty clear to me that the same type of balancing was not applied in both rating decisions… Well, that certainly settles that! If we accept your premises, your reasoning and your conclusions, then you are right. I rate this statement a **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/127 "2016-09-25T17:28:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … a slip of the tongue – say, attributing a statement to the “Iraq Study Group,” instead of the “Iraq Survey Group,” – is rated “False.” It was uttered by a Republican, and was an absolutely true statement about the Iraq Survey Group. The Republican said it was the “Iraq Study Group,” and got “False.” Cite? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/128 "2016-09-25T17:32:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say (d): Politifact tends to apply harsher standards to Republicans than to Democrats. That is, a slip of the tongue – say, attributing a statement to the “Iraq Study Group,” instead of the “Iraq Survey Group,” – is rated “False.” It was uttered by a Republican, and was an absolutely true statement about the Iraq Survey Group. The Republican said it was the “Iraq Study Group,” and got “False.” > > OK. I can live with that. The standard is high, but technically, the statement was False, and they rated it false. > > But a Planned Parenthood ad that claimed “Republican candidate [JH] voted to criminalize abortion for rape victims,” was rated Half True. But as they acknowledge in the discussion, the bill JH voted for would not result in criminal charges for rape victims who procure abortions. Only abortion providers would have been criminally liable, and then only when the abortion was after the 20th week. > > The Planned Parenthood statement is not “Half True.” It’s false. Now, you can perhaps make an argument that a generous reading of it has some relation to the truth: the bill involved some criminal penalties for some abortion-related actions. But it’s pretty clear to me that the same type of balancing was not applied in both rating decisions. > > I don’t mind a strict assessment of the truth of statements; I don’t mind a lenient assessment that targets only the most unambiguous lies as False. > > In my view, however, Politifact applies two different standards, each defensible on their own but clearly not harmonious with each other. And the choice of which standard to apply reliably correlates to the political leaning assisted by the finding. I’m on the planned parenthood politifact page, and only see one half true statement. I’m not seeing which one you refer to. Maybe it’s listed elsewhere? Could you point me to it? Here is the PP file: > **[PolitiFact | Planned Parenthood](https://www.politifact.com/personalities/planned-parenthood/)** > > PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/129 "2016-09-25T18:31:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That was a good, funny joke right there. > > Clinton is a proven liar and a felon. A felon? Do you mean she’s been convicted, tried, or indicted for a felony, or you just kind of feel like she’s a felon? I could call you a felon for spreading felonious bullshit. As for a liar, they’ve both spread the truth, but Trump knowingly makes ridiculously false statements every time he opens his mouth, and repeats them despite them having been proven false. Sure, Mexico’s gonna pay for that wall. It looks like you’ve swallowed Trump’s whoppers so many times that you have no gag reflex at all. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/130 "2016-09-25T18:36:00Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I would have preferred almost any alternative to Trump, but:[ol] > [li]He’s not Hillary[/li][li]He’s not Hillary[/li][li]We can always hope he dies soon after the inauguration (or even that the “he doesn’t really want to be president, and he’ll resign once he wins” rumor is true).[/li][li]Hopefully there are enough checks and balances that even an incompetent clown as president can’t do too much damage.[/li][/ol] Let me see if I understand your “reasoning.” You’re happy to turn the government over to a huckster whose biggest claim to greatness is that he’s not yet been arrested for his many criminal frauds because: - checks and balances limit the damage he’ll do, and - he’s likely to die or resign, thus turning the Oval Office over to … _Mike Pence_. :eek: (Out of curiosity, do you consider Pence to be a Mt. Rushmore candidate, or just an OK Prez comparable to a Bush-41 or Nixon?) And the reasons? To avoid Hillary and to avoid Hillary. What sort of super-powers do you think Hillary has anyway? Is she a witch that will be able to mesmerize the GOP-controlled House, canceling that check and balance? And why the hatred anyway? Is it her insincerity like Pneumonia-Gate — pretending to be patriotic when she should have been at home in bed? No, even an idiot would know Trump is by far the bigger liar. Is it, after all, the murder of Vince Foster? Hiring the Arabs to bring down the WTC? Some people say Hillary was the Zodiac Killer — is that it? [We have a thread for loathsome haters like you, **Lumpy**.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=799837) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/131 "2016-09-25T18:52:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say (d): Politifact tends to apply harsher standards to Republicans than to Democrats. That is, a slip of the tongue – say, attributing a statement to the “Iraq Study Group,” instead of the “Iraq Survey Group,” – is rated “False.” It was uttered by a Republican, and was an absolutely true statement about the Iraq Survey Group. The Republican said it was the “Iraq Study Group,” and got “False.” Was that a specific example, or an hypothetical example of an example? I am not finding this particular example that you are talking about. Could you point to either this example you are referring to, or to an actual example of the effect that you are claiming? Otherwise, could you be applying harsher standards to politifact’s criticism of republicans than you do to their criticism of democrats? A cite for the criminalization of abortion fact check claim would be useful as well, as that doesn’t seem to be forthcoming (or possibly even exist). ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/132 "2016-09-25T18:56:03Z")
Can I get an answer to this? That is, if you HAVE an answer. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > In this spirit, a question for this and other Trump voters: > > **Specifically what damage do you expect Hillary to do to the country in four years?** > > Keep it specific. Keep out “she lies,” she’s wooden, strident, all the personal things you don’t like about her. I’m talking only about policy and what she could actually DO that would damage the USA in your opinion. > > STAY ON TOPIC. DO NOT DEVIATE FROM MY QUESTION. KEEP IT SPECIFIC. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS (we’ve heard all those already). ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/133 "2016-09-25T19:00:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Was that a specific example, or an hypothetical example of an example? I am not finding this particular example that you are talking about. Could you point to either this example you are referring to, or to an actual example of the effect that you are claiming? Otherwise, could you be applying harsher standards to politifact’s criticism of republicans than you do to their criticism of democrats? > > A cite for the criminalization of abortion fact check claim would be useful as well, as that doesn’t seem to be forthcoming (or possibly even exist). I’m not bricker but I guess this is what he is referring to: > **[The Iraq Study Group didn't say that](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2007/oct/09/fred-thompson/the-iraq-study-group-didnt-say-that/)** > > During a Republican debate in Dearborn, Mich., on Oct. 9, 2007, Fred Thompson was asked to explain his previous comments ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/134 "2016-09-25T19:07:57Z")
And I found the the PP one as well. > **[PolitiFact - Planned Parenthood Votes says Joe Heck 'voted to criminalize...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/sep/13/planned-parenthood-votes/planned-parenthood-votes-says-joe-heck-voted-crimi/)** > > An affiliate of Planned Parenthood has released an ad targeting Rep. Joe Heck, the Republican nominee in the neck-and-ne ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/135 "2016-09-25T20:26:22Z")
[Scope of Trump’s falsehoods unprecedented for a modern presidential candidate](http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-false-statements-20160925-snap-story.html) Again, I don’t really care for Hillary, but Trump is just a buffoon that is beyond the pale. What does it take to for his supporters to realize Trump does not have anyone’s back except his own? Trump certainly doesn’t have “his base” at heart. His concern is his family and business. He’s just using them–his base/morons and what’s scary is that they’re a lot of them that don’t care, as long as it’s “not Hillary”. Yeah, let’s fuck the country because you don’t like a particular family. Wonder what other American political family is decisive? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/136 "2016-09-25T21:01:01Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Can I get an answer to this? That is, if you HAVE an answer. She’s untrustworthy. She’s going to steal the Whitehouse china. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/137 "2016-09-25T21:31:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > We have a thread for loathsome haters like you, **Lumpy**. I’m ordering my [Basket of Deplorables](https://s3.amazonaws.com/teeshirtpalace-production/spree/images/PMD4526-BLACK-AT/large/PMD4526-BLACK-AT.jpg?1473884107) t-shirt today. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/138 "2016-09-25T21:38:07Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > She’s untrustworthy. She’s going to steal the Whitehouse china. Oooo, do you think she’ll put it on eBay? I’d like some teacups for my next Tea Party. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/139 "2016-09-25T21:50:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m ordering my [Basket of Deplorables](https://s3.amazonaws.com/teeshirtpalace-production/spree/images/PMD4526-BLACK-AT/large/PMD4526-BLACK-AT.jpg?1473884107) t-shirt today. You can probably get your wife a “I’m with Stupid” t-shirt a lot cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699/140 "2016-09-25T22:46:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say (d): Politifact tends to apply harsher standards to Republicans than to Democrats. That is, a slip of the tongue – say, attributing a statement to the “Iraq Study Group,” instead of the “Iraq Survey Group,” – is rated “False.” It was uttered by a Republican, and was an absolutely true statement about the Iraq Survey Group. The Republican said it was the “Iraq Study Group,” and got “False.” If true, this ‘standard’ is pretty malicious. One might as well classify a politician as a 'liar" for mistakenly spelling NATO out as \*“Northern \*Atlantic Treaty Organization” rather than “North Atlantic Treaty Organization.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-explain-yourselves/766699.md?page=8)