# Trump voters prefer Jefferson Davis as president to Barack Obama **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 23, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487 "2017-08-23T21:33:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/361 "2017-08-29T17:34:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You don’t think it’s “reasonable” to call him out about being loud and proud ever since of reversing a very close decision that shouldn’t have been a decision at all? And do please note that his purported revulsion toward Trump is merely based on his boorishness, not his corruption or treason or racism, and certainly not on his policies. > > It’s possible to try so hard to be fair to someone that you wind up being unfair to yourself and everyone else. A lot of people here do that to him when it isn’t deserved. I really don’t get it. I’m fine with criticizing **Bricker** for not seeing how much worse Trump was (vastly!) than Clinton. But you snipped the quote in a way that made it seem like he actually voted for Trump, not Clinton, when the reverse is true. That was a dishonest snip, in my opinion. You could have made your point with an honest snip, but you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/362 "2017-08-29T17:38:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m fine with criticizing **Bricker** for not seeing how much worse Trump was (vastly!) than Clinton. But you snipped the quote in a way that made it seem like he actually voted for Trump, not Clinton, when the reverse is true. That was a dishonest snip, in my opinion. You could have made your point with an honest snip, but you didn’t. I don’t think so. It’s clear that his point was specifically to lie about something, so that rules out an “honest snip”. Why else claim that **Bricker** “didn’t vote for Clinton”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/363 "2017-08-29T17:46:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think so. It’s clear that his point was specifically to lie about something, so that rules out an “honest snip”. Why else claim that **Bricker** “didn’t vote for Clinton”. I don’t see where he said that. In the post in question, I interpreted it to be about the “struggle with the decision” from the immediately prior post. But he still should have included the entire context of the post in which **Bricker** described his “struggle”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/364 "2017-08-29T17:55:37Z")
The struggle itself is the point. B’rer **Bricker** has taken the first faltering steps away from the path of political error. Even a journey of a thousand leagues begins with a single stumble. Yeah, I’m fuckin’ deep. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/365 "2017-08-29T17:56:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see where he said that. In the post in question, I interpreted it to be about the “struggle with the decision” from the immediately prior post. But he still should have included the entire context of the post in which **Bricker** described his “struggle”. He was responding to “I respect that he didn’t vote for Trump” in the post immediately above. **Elvis** was clearly trying to say that **Bricker** did vote for Trump, not Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/366 "2017-08-29T17:59:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He was responding to “I respect that he didn’t vote for Trump” in the post immediately above. **Elvis** was clearly trying to say that **Bricker** did vote for Trump, not Clinton. That’s not how I interpreted it. Either way the way he quoted **Bricker** was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/367 "2017-08-29T18:04:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow, you are something else. Here’s the rest of the post: I just want to note, all the reasons Bricker listed for changing his vote to Clinton are the same reasons many others (like myself) voted against Trump too. > [@Bricker](#): > > I thought about his boorish mocking of other candidates, his ugly and divisive commentary about immigrants, his hormone-addled teenage mentality about women, his utter carelessness about civics, his absurd and changing promises, his fake press agent, and his lack of self-control. And they were/are valid reasons. Plus, being raised in Queens county NYC, I was well aware of his past history or “life story” too. See above for how his “home town” saw him and how they voted accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/368 "2017-08-29T18:15:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not how I interpreted it. Either way the way he quoted **Bricker** was wrong. Anyone reading Elvis’ post would think that **Bricker** voted for Trump. If you don’t think **Elvis** intended that, then I’m not going to argue with you about it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/369 "2017-08-29T18:18:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Anyone reading Elvis’ post would think that **Bricker** voted for Trump. If you don’t think **Elvis** intended that, then I’m not going to argue with you about it. That’s why I’m saying the snip was dishonest – because it would lead to that incorrect belief. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/370 "2017-08-29T18:28:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [You might find this interesting,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19780993)if you missed it the first time. > > It is not at all clear to me how much credit someone can claim for not doing something that he \*did \*do. [Moderating] The way you’ve edit **Bricker** ’s post to imply that he supported Trump is sufficiently deceptive that it’s in violation of the board rule against manipulating other poster’s words in a quote box. Avoid doing this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/371 "2017-08-29T18:58:25Z")
Let’s hope that will end this stupid hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/372 "2017-08-29T23:25:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not how I interpreted it. Either way the way he quoted **Bricker** was wrong. But that is exactly how I interpreted it, and it made me question my certainty that **Bricker** had in fact voted against Trump. Thanks, **John** , for providing the full quote. And apologies for continuing this, but I don’t think it’s a hijack so much as a perfect demonstration of the issue already in discussion: that the mocking, 100%-or-nothing attitude coming from many on the left, while often enjoyable in a sanctimonious way, could doom us all at the next election, or the midterms or whatever you call them. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Factual accuracy is indeed “something else” than your habitual supercilious both-sides-ism, isn’t it? But **John** , unlike you, _did_ provide factual accuracy. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And do please note that his purported revulsion toward Trump is merely based on his boorishness, his policies. This also is inaccurate. **Bricker** outlined numerous reasons why he ultimately voted against Trump and – I can’t stress this enough – _his own party_. > [@](#): > > It’s possible to try so hard to be fair to someone that you wind up being unfair to yourself and everyone else. A lot of people here do that to him when it isn’t deserved. I really don’t get it. It’s possible also to make enemies of potential allies by criticizing someone for not doing something in exactly the way you wanted after they’ve already crossed party lines to support your interests. How do you expect to win over any new supporters when this is how you treat those who are already, reluctantly, on your side? In his own way he’s fighting for your camp. Don’t drive him off for not wearing the uniform. > [@bobot](#): > > Yeah, I can be. I respect that he didn’t vote for Trump. I can’t see how anyone would struggle with the decision, though. Honestly, neither do I. But it would behoove us to learn. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/373 "2017-08-30T00:29:59Z")
The fact remains that he \*did \*vote for Trump, and told us so, even if he did change his mind at the last possible moment. That \*is \*factually accurate and \*not \*deceptive. What is \*not \*factually accurate and _is_ deceptive is his proud and repeated claim subsequently that he has never been a Trump supporter. We’re about _fighting_ ignorance here, or so I thought. This is not a proud moment for some of you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/374 "2017-08-30T01:39:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The fact remains that he \*did \*vote for Trump, and told us so, even if he did change his mind at the last possible moment. That \*is \*factually accurate and \*not \*deceptive. What is \*not \*factually accurate and _is_ deceptive is his proud and repeated claim subsequently that he has never been a Trump supporter. > > We’re about _fighting_ ignorance here, or so I thought. This is not a proud moment for some of you. Voting involves more than marking a ballot. It requires submitting that ballot, which is them counted. I could print up a hundred ballots and mark Trump, but I wouldn’t have actually voted for him. It’s a factually false statement to say that Bricker voted for Trump (unless he’s lying). He voted for Clinton, not Trump. That he had trouble with this decision is worthy of criticism, but marking a ballot and then scrapping it before submitting is not voting. Die on this hill if you want, but it reflects poorly on you as a poster of you do so, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/375 "2017-08-30T01:40:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The fact remains that he \*did \*vote for Trump, and told us so, even if he did change his mind at the last possible moment. That \*is \*factually accurate and \*not \*deceptive. What is \*not \*factually accurate and _is_ deceptive is his proud and repeated claim subsequently that he has never been a Trump supporter. > > We’re about _fighting_ ignorance here, or so I thought. This is not a proud moment for some of you. Lord almighty! I’d say that’s some pretty twisted logic you’re using there, but there just isn’t a shred of logic to it. **Bricker** rethought his intent to vote for Clinton, _against his party_. He filled out a ballot for Trump, which, after much thinking, _he voided_. He _actually voted_ for Clinton. I thought _alternative facts_ were the game of the other side. Stop shooting yourself in the foot. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/376 "2017-08-30T02:47:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Google “Charlottesville chat” to get the links to the stories from _Wired, Fortune_, and _Politico_. Boiled down, its internet chats amongst the earnest patriots of the alt-Reich before the events in question. An eager bunch they were, it would seem. > > There are other less well known outlets with similar stories. Read a couple of these, and that’s gonna have to do it for me. Trying to stay sane and sober, shit like this makes me feel like I have to choose. Let me make it easier for you… Booze can get _expensive_. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/377 "2017-08-30T02:50:09Z")
> [@Itself](#): > > Dude, I’m a conservative. Your tired schtick about triggered snowflakes is nowhere near as clever or funny as you seem to think it is. > > You’re going to continue to be scared, angry, and confused for the rest of your life. That’s sad, but you deserve it. You’re not a conservative; you’re a lickspittle bitch of whatever strongman you think will save you from the nasty liberals. You are a useless, sniveling, subhuman coward; you’re a worthless excuse for an American and a human being; and you disgust me. :eek: That’s gonna leave a mark… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/378 "2017-08-30T03:08:29Z")
Of course, the 9/11 perps were safely based in Bricker’s ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/379 "2017-08-30T03:21:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So, I’m truly sorry that I am not the paragon of patience in these threads when I’m dealing with dishonest people. Some of them. Some of them like iiandyiiii are definitely biased but seem honest. There’s some nuance for you. Yeah, other people are to blame for your behavior. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/380 "2017-08-30T06:03:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Can’t help but wonder if they’d still been armed and behaving the way they did had liberal douchebags never attacked Trump’s supporters at rallies or began throwing wine bottles and swinging bicycle locks at other right wing demonstrations. Uh, you “can’t help but wonder” whether **hundreds of literal Nazis and white supremacists:** - who showed up at a prearranged rally of Nazi and white supremacist groups to yell antisemitic and racist slogans and vile racial epithets; - who picked the location for their rally based on their vehement opposition to legal and peaceful local deliberations about whether to move a statue honoring a leader of a treasonous rebellion in defense of the practice of slavery; - who beat up, ran down and murdered people who weren’t physically threatening them in any way; …would have behaved themselves better if a small handful of other people at previous demonstrations hadn’t got into fights? :dubious: Based on past performance, I can’t say I share your optimism that Nazis and white supremacists would be likely to behave themselves as long as **other** people don’t start any trouble. Nazis and white supremacists have a long and crowded history of being well able, and quite willing, to start plenty of trouble all on their own initiative. [QUOTE=Starving Artist] The racial insults are probably 50% or more insincere and intended to cheese off the libs [/quote] Another astounding example of some conservatives’ current willingness to downplay, trivialize and normalize even the most horrendously unethical behavior as long as it annoys liberals. **You seriously think that yelling “nigger” and “I hope you get raped by a nigger”, etc., at people is basically not a big deal if the intent is to make liberals angry?** What other kinds of appalling misconduct are you willing to excuse or shrug off in the name of the sacred mission of Pissing Off the Liberals? Don’t you think it would be more ethical to call out appalling behavior as appalling, no matter **whom** it’s intended to piss off? (And besides: Why in the world does it seem even remotely plausible to you that **literal Nazis and white supremacists** yelling racial insults “are probably 50% or more insincere”? We are talking about **dues-paying members of racist hate groups carrying swastika flags and “white power” symbols**. Generally, when people like that yell racial insults they’re 100% sincere about it.) [QUOTE=Starving Artist] I was amused the excuse that the ACLU dreamed up to excuse themselves from having to defend the free speech rights of Nazis by announcing they would not defend hate groups who come to demonstrations armed. [/quote] The ACLU is not in fact abandoning its principled commitment to defending the free speech rights of Nazis and other pustulent assholes who nonetheless are constitutionally entitled to free speech. Here’s an [article by an ACLU spokesman describing the actual policy](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/09/28/why-we-must-still-defend-free-speech/): > [@](#): > > In some limited but important settings, equality norms do trump free speech. At schools and in the workplace, for example, antidiscrimination law forbids harassment and hostile working conditions based on race or sex, and those rules limit what people can say there. […] But those exceptions do not extend to the public sphere, where ideas must be open to full and free contestation, and those who disagree can turn away or talk back. […] > > Boston proved yet again that the most powerful response to speech that we hate is not suppression but more speech. […] Free speech, in short, is exposing white supremacists’ ideas to the condemnation they deserve. Moral condemnation, not legal suppression, is the appropriate response to these despicable ideas. […] > > What about speech and weapons? The ACLU’s executive director, Anthony Romero, explained that, in light of Charlottesville and the risk of violence at future protests, the ACLU will not represent marchers who seek to brandish weapons while protesting. (This is not a new position. In a pamphlet signed by Roger Baldwin, Arthur Garfield Hays, Morris Ernst, and others, the ACLU took a similar stance in 1934, explaining that we defended the Nazis’ right to speak, but not to march while armed.) This is a content-neutral policy; it applies to all armed marchers, regardless of their views. […] > > The truth is that both internally and externally, it would be much easier for the ACLU to represent only those with whom we agree. But the power of our First Amendment advocacy turns on our commitment to a principle of viewpoint neutrality that requires protection for proponents and opponents of our own best view of racial justice. If we defended speech only when we agreed with it, on what ground would we ask others to tolerate speech they oppose? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487.md?page=20)