# Trump voters prefer Jefferson Davis as president to Barack Obama **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 23, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487 "2017-08-23T21:33:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/141 "2017-08-25T03:14:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Show me where somebody said that. Show me where someone said you did. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/142 "2017-08-25T03:15:20Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > If only that was what happened…keep fucking that goat. Done with you. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/143 "2017-08-25T03:21:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I have a **big** problem with conservative voters being so irrationally overinvested in their exasperation with liberal voters **that they voluntarily support for high political office the most irresponsible unqualified corrupt buffoon of a demagogue that they can find because he’s the one who pisses off the liberals the most.** I once read about a poll - I’m not telling what European country it was as I’m at all sure if it was a real poll, but I can actually believe it was… People were asked would they rather: A) have € 100 and their neighbour have € 100 B) have € 200 and their neighbour have € 500 and C) have a punch in the face and their neighbour have no punches D) have two punches in the face and their neighbour have one punch Majority voted: A and D ☹ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/144 "2017-08-25T06:31:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Answering “yes” to those questions is something I sense you’re probably not too unwilling to do. Police called. Your Freshman Comp 101 teacher is standing out on a ledge, threatening to jump. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/145 "2017-08-25T06:35:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Show me where someone said you did. How about you ask people to defend things they actually said, instead of things they didn’t? But I’m a co-operative kind of guy. So, no, I don’t think half of Trump supporters are Nazis. And I’ll re-affirm that I never said that half of Trump’s supporters are Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/146 "2017-08-25T06:43:10Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Is there actually any evidence that Hillary Clinton even wanted votes from those deplorables? > > Somehow I think she’s more picky than that. Let’s be real. She was running for office. She wanted to get elected. I doubt she would have turned away anyone’s vote (assuming she had the power to do so). The question is what she was willing to do to get people to vote for her. And she was not willing to speak well of Nazism in order to court the Nazi vote. But that’s a really low bar. Most candidates, Democrats and Republicans, wouldn’t be willing to speak well of Nazism to court the Nazi vote. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/147 "2017-08-25T09:41:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Unfortunate? That’s an understatement. Starving Artist is correct. Pro communism doesn’t even raise an eyebrow. Communism and Naziism (Nazism?) in America are not comparable beasts. American Communists want economic equality for everyone. American Nazis want persecution, deportation and/or death for Jews, blacks, gays and millions of assorted others. Both are deeply delusional, but only one group is actively dangerous. The worst we have to fear from American Communists is that they might stage a sit-in if their local Trader Joes runs out of quinoa chips. Stalinism would be a somewhat more appropriate comparison, and if there were groups marching through the streets waving the hammer-and-sickle flag and demanding pogroms, you betcha we’d be against that. But that’s not happening, is it? > [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not what I said. > > But notice how you re-frame the debate to focus on the worst of the cases? Clinton’s words were “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic – you name it.” > > You mention neo-Nazis and Klansman. > > How about others? People who want a stricter immigration policy. Is it wise to call them all xenophobic? People who think there’s a concern in forcing bakers to design custom cakes for same-sex marriages – are they all bigots? People who oppose affirmative action programs – are they all racists? But notice how you reframe the debate to draw focus _away_ from the worst cases? These weren’t an irrelevant fringe; Trump retweeted messages from white supremacist sources on multiple occasions and continued to do so long after it was pointed out that maybe this was sending the wrong message. And the sad truth is that most of the people who use the phrase “I just want a stricter immigration policy” \*are \*in fact xenophobic once you start digging into their beliefs. They’re the same people defending Sheriff Joe Arpaio. And the majority of people “who think there’s a concern in forcing bakers to design custom cakes for same-sex marriages” \*are \*actually bigots, hiding behind the thin veneer of “religious freedom” claims in the same way segregationists hid (and still hide) behind “states’ rights”. Yes, there are non-bigots in both groups but let’s not pretend they’re a majority or even a significant minority. Is it “wise” to call out the bigots? Perhaps not. But it’s true nonetheless that they are bigots. I mean, Trump gave out a steady stream of “racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic” messages throughout the campaign. If his followers weren’t people those messages appealed to, who was he talking to and why were those messages so successful? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/148 "2017-08-25T11:54:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How about you ask people to defend things they actually said, instead of things they didn’t? > > But I’m a co-operative kind of guy. So, no, I don’t think half of Trump supporters are Nazis. And I’ll re-affirm that I never said that half of Trump’s supporters are Nazis. Am I allowed to ask people to clarify their thoughts based on their apparent implications? Because we started with my critique of Clinton’s line and your defense of that line on the general grounds that politicians should speak out against Nazis and Klansmen. Then I pointed out that while I agree with you there, Clinton’s line covered much more than just Nazis and Knlansmen: it appeared to cover people for whom the areas of disagreement are much closer to reasonable ones. We know this, I said, because half of Trump’s supporters are not Nazis or Klansmen. At which point you demanded to know when you claimed such a thing. So if you’re caught up, then here’s the question again. Clinton said that roughly half of Trump’s voters are “deplorable.” I say that was unwise. She herself now concedes it was unwise. You _appeared_ to disagree, citing a moral imperative to stand up to Nazis. I pointed out that her comments reached beyond the Trump-supporting Nazis. Go. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/149 "2017-08-25T12:17:50Z")
Clinton insulted about half of Trump’s supporters, as a group. Trump insulted 100% of Trump’s supporters, as a group. As well as insulting 100% of women, 100% of immigrants, 100% of Muslims, and a wide variety of other groups. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/150 "2017-08-25T14:07:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > > You claim to have held your nose and voted for HRC, yet you repeatedly defend the indefensible. > > Those actions are quite consistent with one another. No, they are not. You insist on playing Atticus Finch for Team Trump, counselor. Why? > [@Bricker](#): > > Taking a stand against bigots is proper. Declaring that half your opponent’s supporters are bigots is the distraction. Just attack the bigots. It is not a distraction, it’s a practical question. If half of Trump’s supporters are not in fact bigots but made common cause with those who are, how are we to distinguish between them? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/151 "2017-08-25T14:34:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Am I allowed to ask people to clarify their thoughts based on their apparent implications? > > Because we started with my critique of Clinton’s line and your defense of that line on the general grounds that politicians should speak out against Nazis and Klansmen. Then I pointed out that while I agree with you there, Clinton’s line covered much more than just Nazis and Knlansmen: it appeared to cover people for whom the areas of disagreement are much closer to reasonable ones. We know this, I said, because half of Trump’s supporters are not Nazis or Klansmen. > > At which point you demanded to know when you claimed such a thing. > > So if you’re caught up, then here’s the question again. Clinton said that roughly half of Trump’s voters are “deplorable.” I say that was unwise. She herself now concedes it was unwise. You _appeared_ to disagree, citing a moral imperative to stand up to Nazis. I pointed out that her comments reached beyond the Trump-supporting Nazis. > > Go. You don’t have to be a Nazi or a Klansmen to be a bigot, a homophobe, and islamophobe, or any of the other class of deplorables she was talking about. Are you saying that as long as someone is not a Nazi or Klansmen, then their bigotry becomes much closer to reasonable positions? She did not call out people who are concerned about our border, she called out bigots, she did not call out people who were concerned about cake makers, she called out homophobes, she did not call out people who are concerned about terrorism, she called out islamophobes. Anyone who was offended was either ignorant of what she said, or considers themselves to be one of those groups. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/152 "2017-08-25T14:45:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No, they are not. > > You insist on playing Atticus Finch for Team Trump, counselor. Why? Odd that this question doesn’t arise when I [play Atticus Finch](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750725) for [certain other people](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11487142&postcount=39). Why? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/153 "2017-08-25T14:46:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t have to be a Nazi or a Klansmen to be a bigot, a homophobe, and islamophobe, or any of the other class of deplorables she was talking about. > > Are you saying that as long as someone is not a Nazi or Klansmen, then their bigotry becomes much closer to reasonable positions? > > She did not call out people who are concerned about our border, she called out bigots, she did not call out people who were concerned about cake makers, she called out homophobes, she did not call out people who are concerned about terrorism, she called out islamophobes. > > Anyone who was offended was either ignorant of what she said, or considers themselves to be one of those groups. OK. I’m done here. Clinton herself acknowledged the line was a misstep politically, but you don’t agree with her, or me, on the point. We’ll agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/154 "2017-08-25T14:52:38Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Or you can be an idiot. It’s ok, \*\*Okrahoma \*\*and \*\*Clothahump \*\*need peers, otherwise no one will be able to sit on the jury when they inevitably go to trial for hitting a dirty lib’rul. Our peers would be intelligent people. There are damn few of us left on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/155 "2017-08-25T14:53:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. I’m done here. > > Clinton herself acknowledged the line was a misstep politically, but you don’t agree with her, or me, on the point. > > We’ll agree to disagree. Which of the points in play would that be? Because “Clinton now thinks she was unwise to make the remark” isn’t the same point as “Clinton falsely accused some Trump supporters of being bigots” or “It’s better to lie and win than to be honest and lose”. Being correct on the first one doesn’t make you correct on the second, and the third remains debatable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/156 "2017-08-25T15:06:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Which of the points in play would that be? Because “Clinton now thinks she was unwise to make the remark” isn’t the same point as “Clinton falsely accused some Trump supporters of being bigots” or “It’s better to lie and win than to be honest and lose”. Being correct on the first one doesn’t make you correct on the second, and the third remains debatable. I agree with #2. That is, I agree some Trump supporters are bigots and that as to them, Clinton’s accusation was accurate. As to the third, it ties in nicely to the first: it’s possible to avoid lying, avoid most insulting, and win. See, e.g., Obama, B. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/157 "2017-08-25T15:06:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. I’m done here. > > Clinton herself acknowledged the line was a misstep politically, but you don’t agree with her, or me, on the point. > > We’ll agree to disagree. I know you say that you are done here, but you have entirely misattributed what I said. It was a misstep politically, sure, because people are stupid, and took it in the most stupid fashion possible. But that does not make it any less true. Pretty much any time she said anything true, that was a misstep politically, compared to ever time trump lied, he got more support. If you were insulted by her statement, then you consider yourself one of those groups. I do not see how anyone who does not consider themself to be a racist to be offended when racists are called out. I get that telling the truth can cost you politically, and I get that lying to the voters is a good way to get support, I just don’t think that these are a good way to continue things. It should not have been a political misstep to call out bigots and racists. It should have been a political misstep for trump of not calling out bigots and racists. The fact that calling out racists and bigots has become a political misstep is definitely a problem in our politics, and one we should be looking to solve, not one we should be gloating about and looking to capitalize on further. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/158 "2017-08-25T15:14:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree with #2. > > That is, I agree some Trump supporters are bigots and that as to them, Clinton’s accusation was accurate. That…isn’t what #2 said. > [@](#): > > As to the third, it ties in nicely to the first: it’s possible to avoid lying, avoid most insulting, and win. See, e.g., Obama, B. It is also possible to lie your ass off and win. See, e.g., Trump, D. It’s a bit difficult to extrapolate from one data point each, but I seem to recall you quoting Henry Clay to imply that “being right” and “being President” are often mutually exclusive, which suggests this is a view you support (although your views do seem to evolve rapidly over the course of a thread sometimes). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/159 "2017-08-25T15:40:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree with #2. > > That is, I agree some Trump supporters are bigots and that as to them, Clinton’s accusation was accurate. > > As to the third, it ties in nicely to the first: it’s possible to avoid lying, avoid most insulting, and win. See, e.g., Obama, B. I don’t think the hypothesis “you can win the US presidency without lying” has actually been tested yet _by anyone_. Trump took things to the extreme, but that doesn’t expunge everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-voters-prefer-jefferson-davis-as-president-to-barack-obama/794487/160 "2017-08-25T15:44:33Z")
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