# Trump vs Clinton in the General Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989 "2016-05-17T13:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/182 "2016-05-21T19:01:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > She doesn’t have any official government position right now. Who would be giving her these briefings? Her campaign advisors? The same State Department people [giving them to Trump](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/05/nominee-trump-would-get-classified-intelligence-briefings/83980340/), at the very least. It is not a new practice for former top officials to continue to get courtesy briefings, and for [nominees as well.](http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/11/politics/intelligence-briefings-presidential-nominees/) Blame FDR for keeping Truman in the dark about the Manhattan Project. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/183 "2016-05-21T19:10:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I agree that Trump is a buffoon. But I have to dock a few points from Hillary for stating that it appeared to be a terrorist act. That seems premature, particularly since nobody has taken credit for the crash. Well considering that at the time Egyptian investigators were stating that terrorism was probable, stating that it _appeared_ to be a terrorism act does not seem too outrageous. It may not turn out to be, but it does appear to be. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/184 "2016-05-21T19:13:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The same State Department people [giving them to Trump](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/05/nominee-trump-would-get-classified-intelligence-briefings/83980340/), at the very least. > > It is not a new practice for former top officials to continue to get courtesy briefings, and for [nominees as well.](http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/11/politics/intelligence-briefings-presidential-nominees/) Blame FDR for keeping Truman in the dark about the Manhattan Project. Neither Trump nor Clinton is currently receiving nominee briefings. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/185 "2016-05-21T19:18:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Well considering that at the time Egyptian investigators were stating that terrorism was probable, stating that it _appeared_ to be a terrorism act does not seem too outrageous. It may not turn out to be, but it does appear to be. I still think it was presumptuous. What it looked like to me was pandering to the inevitable chorus of criticism that Obama gets every time any type of multiple murders occur. What some of the public seems to want the president to do is every time there’s any possibility of such an event being terrorist related, he must run to the nearest microphone before the last bit of shrapnel hits the ground and shout “Terrorism! _Islamic Terrorism!_ Fucking Muslims! We’re all gonna die!” A few days in, we’re still not certain what happened. I don’t think a catastrophic mechanical failure is out of the question. Perhaps a bomb is more likely, but there really isn’t any point to start waving the bloody flag of terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/186 "2016-05-21T19:23:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The same State Department people [giving them to Trump](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/05/nominee-trump-would-get-classified-intelligence-briefings/83980340/), at the very least. > > It is not a new practice for former top officials to continue to get courtesy briefings, and for [nominees as well.](http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/11/politics/intelligence-briefings-presidential-nominees/) Blame FDR for keeping Truman in the dark about the Manhattan Project. Both of those articles are about briefings that will begin after the national conventions so not really on the mark here. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/187 "2016-05-21T19:25:11Z")
There are no claims of responsibility yet, but there might not be if this was private enterprise. And it might also be genuinely a mechanical failure - there are still people today claiming TWA 800 was bombed, for instance. There have been enough pilot suicides/mass murders to leave that a possibility, too. But a terrorist bomb is certainly the way to bet based on public (and maybe classified) information today, and it’s hardly irresponsible for anyone to say so, even a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/188 "2016-05-21T20:23:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’ve not studied this sub-debate but wonder what point is being made. > > There are about 15,000 murders in the U.S. annually; about 3.6% of the population is illegal aliens; so one might expect 540 of the murders to be committed by illegals. > > If the illegals kill less than 540 people, then one can argue that they are beneficial and _lower the murder rate!_ > > Do illegals murder more or less than 540 annually? I’ve no idea, but wonder what relevance stories of individual murders have … unless you link to 540 of them! From [Breitbert](http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/08/08/illegal-alien-crime-accounts-for-over-30-of-murders-in-some-states/) (yes, I know, Breitbart - but they do cite): > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]Between 2008 and 2014, 40% of all murder convictions in Florida were criminal aliens. In New York it was 34% and Arizona 17.8%.[/li] > [li]During those years, criminal aliens accounted for 38% of all murder convictions in the five states of California, Texas, Arizona, Florida and New York, while illegal aliens constitute only 5.6% of the total population in those states.[/li] > [li]That 38% represents 7,085 murders out of the total of 18,643.[/li][/ul] > > That 5.6% figure for the average illegal alien population in those five states comes from US Census estimates. We know the real number is double that official estimate. Yet, even if it is 11%, it is still shameful that the percentage of murders by criminal aliens is more than triple the illegal population in those states. > > Those astounding numbers were compiled by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) using official Department of Justice data on criminal aliens in the nation’s correctional system. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/189 "2016-05-21T21:08:32Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > Do you have anything to actually add to the debate? > > Really? I’ll go down the list for you. Here [another source for the murder of Earl Olander](http://www.kare11.com/news/crime/2-to-be-sentenced-in-farmers-murder/177083603), [one for Oscar Navarro](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/89-stab-and-slash-wounds-excised-liver-test-jurors-endurance-in-murder-trial/2016/04/30/7fa7c81e-0e5b-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html), and [Juan Razo](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/us/ohio-killing/), and… > > Oh forget it. I don’t want to debate the impartiality of a source if you can’t be bothered to do a simple Google search. > > So…nothing? Nothing to debate when the opponent keeps moving the goal posts. I seem to recall that this had to do with stopping illegal immigration, then it moved to how illegal immigrants are somehow a threat because they have a crime rate (duh), then to reducing crime in general. And it wasn’t me doing the moving. Stick to one point and defend it, or don’t even bother calling it a debate. ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/190 "2016-05-21T21:46:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Nothing to debate when the opponent keeps moving the goal posts. I seem to recall that this had to do with stopping illegal immigration, then it moved to how illegal immigrants are somehow a threat because they have a crime rate (duh), then to reducing crime in general. And it wasn’t me doing the moving. Stick to one point and defend it, or don’t even bother calling it a debate. Ah yes, let’s devolve this into a logical fallacy name game! The SDMB modus operandi! When you can’t refute evidence, attack it’s presentation! You decided to move the goal posts when you cited a separate demographic’s crime rate. Crime sucks no matter who is committing but the point and facts still stand: illegal immigrants account for a substantial amount of crime and this crime can drastically be reduced through more border security. I have provided evidence for both. I know how inconvenient it must be. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/191 "2016-05-21T21:58:40Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > Ah yes, let’s devolve this into a logical fallacy name game! The SDMB modus operandi! When you can’t refute evidence, attack it’s presentation! > > You decided to move the goal posts when you cited a separate demographic’s crime rate. Crime sucks no matter who is committing but the point and facts still stand: illegal immigrants account for a substantial amount of crime and this crime can drastically be reduced through more border security. I have provided evidence for both. > > I know how inconvenient it must be. No, I attack its interpretation, and it’s perfectly reasonable to do so. Sorry if you don’t like that, but that’s just too damned bad. ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/192 "2016-05-21T22:03:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > No, I attack its interpretation, and it’s perfectly reasonable to do so. Sorry if you don’t like that, but that’s just too damned bad. Sounds good. Hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/193 "2016-05-22T13:35:28Z")
Okay. This is no longer Rasmussen and Fox. [ABC/WaPo: Trump +2.](http://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1177a1ClintonTrump.pdf) > [@](#): > > A new ABC News/Washington Post poll shows a close contest in presidential election > preferences, with Republicans lining up behind Donald Trump as their party’s presumptive > nominee while the continued Democratic race is keeping Hillary Clinton’s side more unsettled. > Greater voter registration among Republicans is one factor: Clinton’s 6-point lead among all > adults, 48-42 percent in a general election matchup, switches to essentially a dead heat among > registered voters, 46 percent for Trump, 44 percent for Clinton. Regardless, the contest has > tightened considerably since March, when Clinton led among registered voters by 9 points. … > > … The continued Democratic primary race appears to be sapping some of Clinton’s strength. She’s > losing 20 percent of Bernie Sanders’ supporters to Trump, while winning only 11 percent of > leaned Republicans who backed someone other than Trump for their party’s nomination. > Remarkably, Clinton is only running evenly with Trump among 18- to 29-year-olds – a key > Sanders support group that’s looking ever-more resistant to her nomination. In March, Clinton > led Trump among under-30s by 39 percentage points, 64-25 percent. Today they split 45-42 > percent. It’s a group Barack Obama won by 23 points in 2012, and one that Clinton needs back. > That said, Clinton has some powerful cards in the hole, particularly if she can bring her party > together and mobilize her key support groups … ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/194 "2016-05-22T13:50:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay. This is no longer Rasmussen and Fox. [ABC/WaPo: Trump +2.](http://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1177a1ClintonTrump.pdf) > [@ABC News/Washington Post](#): > > She’s losing 20 percent of Bernie Sanders’ supporters to Trump Called this in post #157. She’ll be lucky to win a majority of Bernie supporters. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/195 "2016-05-22T14:28:20Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > Called this in post #157. She’ll be lucky to win a majority of Bernie supporters. I think this depends on Bernie. Under ideal circumstances he would give a solid speech at the convention endorsing Clinton and explaining all the good reasons why a democrat shouldn’t vote for Trump EVEN if you are disillusioned with the corrupt political system. That would go a long way. Bernie withholding an endorsement is going to be very bad for Clinton if that happens. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/196 "2016-05-22T14:30:02Z")
It’s almost too late for that already. The damage he’s doing is real and expanding with every day. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/197 "2016-05-22T14:37:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s almost too late for that already. The damage he’s doing is real and expanding with every day. I don’t agree it’s too late. Bernie is playing Brinkmanship to get as much as he can, that’s just part of politics. He can mollify most of his supporters by keeping his campaign apparatus around and transforming it into progressive lobbying group. He can also point out that they can achieve a lot more working with the system than tearing it down like some of the Trump supporters want to do. At the end of the day he knows how much damage a Trump Presidency would do. ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/198 "2016-05-22T14:49:09Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I think this depends on Bernie. Under ideal circumstances he would give a solid speech at the convention endorsing Clinton and explaining all the good reasons why a democrat shouldn’t vote for Trump EVEN if you are disillusioned with the corrupt political system. That would go a long way. Bernie withholding an endorsement is going to be very bad for Clinton if that happens. Oh, he’s going to the convention alright. And he’s going to give a speech. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/199 "2016-05-22T14:49:41Z")
> [@ABC News/Washington Post](#): > > She’s losing 20 percent of Bernie Sanders’ supporters to Trump I would love to hear from a Sanders supporter who would vote for Trump over Hilary. I can’t imagine 2 candidates who are more opposite. Is it just that they want to vote anti-establishment regardless of the candidates policies? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/200 "2016-05-22T15:03:57Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Does having a fence, or a border checkpoint seem very wrong to you? We have those right now too. > > You know there is a process to come into the country right? We don’t welcome the huddled masses carte blanche. Yes I do realize that. But imo illegal immigrants do more good than harm, so we need a solution that doesn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. > [@ATLHawk](#): > > While it is true that Mexico does not want to annihilate us, I am not fine with illegal immigrants committing rape, murders, drug smuggling, torture, weapons smuggling, human trafficking, etc. at or just within our borders. > > I have never seen Trump state anywhere that he wants to stop Mexicans from legally immigrating but I welcome evidence to the contrary. I have seen him state multiple times, on his website for example, that he wants to curb illegal immigration and not immigration. I am not fine with \*anyone \*committing crimes, but the California economy would collapse without migrant farm workers, most of whom are here illegally. We need a solution that does not keep everyone out–just the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/201 "2016-05-22T15:05:00Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I would love to hear from a Sanders supporter who would vote for Trump over Hilary. I can’t imagine 2 candidates who are more opposite. Is it just that they want to vote anti-establishment regardless of the candidates policies? If you’re in a safe D state then I can understand voting for Trump as a way to send a message that you’re pissed off with the establishment. But yeah anyone that would do this in a swing state where it counts is being pretty stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=11)