# Trump vs Clinton in the General Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989 "2016-05-17T13:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/562 "2016-06-13T17:39:43Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I don’t rely on Fox News. Fact is on all the progressive blogs, like Daily Kos, Dem Underground, Reddit posts, and from posters here, the response from progressive is usually “da Crusadez,” “Tim McVeigh,” etc. Posting this again as you missed it: There is a very strategic reason why broad brushes like the one you are trying to impose should not be done, there are still a lot of Muslims that are also fighting against the same terrorists, and they are not only spending money but lives also, like in Iraq. So you are wrong already in your sweeping statement you were not really aware about what the world is doing. The fact that you choose to ignore it is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/563 "2016-06-13T17:53:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Posting this again as you missed it: > > There is a very strategic reason why broad brushes like the one you are trying to impose should not be done, there are still a lot of Muslims that are also fighting against the same terrorists, and they are not only spending money but lives also, like in Iraq. So you are wrong already in your sweeping statement you were not really aware about what the world is doing. > > The fact that you choose to ignore it is the problem. I don’t doubt that there are, but I also will not ignore [both the higher prevalence and higher intensity of intolerant views](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) in the Muslim world than in the non-Muslim world. At what point can we say that the predominant thinking in the Muslim world is problematic? At what point can we say that it feeds Islamic extremist groups, vs. the point at which we cannot? When can we say that the likelihood of taking immigrants with a life and worldview that is unlikely to coexist with ours peacefully is too high for our own safety? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/564 "2016-06-13T17:58:52Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > oh yes, because whenever anyone mentions Islamic terrorism, there isn’t a parade of left-wingers with “Oh but the Crusades,” “what about Tim McVeigh,” etc.:rolleyes: This has nothing to do with the post I made or the one I responded to, which was about criticizing Muslim terrorists. Obama has strongly and harshly criticized Muslim terrorists, many, many times. Most of your criticism of Obama and of progressives in general is based on fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/565 "2016-06-13T17:59:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > And if you believe that, I have this bridge in NYC for sale. High traffic, high visibility… > Imagine that. Presidential candidates sleep. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/566 "2016-06-13T18:06:44Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I don’t doubt that there are, but I also will not ignore [both the higher prevalence and higher intensity of intolerant views](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) in the Muslim world than in the non-Muslim world. At what point can we say that the predominant thinking in the Muslim world is problematic? At what point can we say that it feeds Islamic extremist groups, vs. the point at which we cannot? When can we say that the likelihood of taking immigrants with a life and worldview that is unlikely to coexist with ours peacefully is too high for our own safety? At what point will you stop moving the goalposts? Once again you were wrong about what the world was doing, even the Muslim world regarding ISIS. BTW, the same poll you are pointing at also shows that the vast majority of Muslims are against using terrorism as in suicide bombings to defend Islam. In America the support of using terrorism as a way to impose their views on others is even less: > **[Little Support for Terrorism Among Muslim Americans](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/12/17/little-support-for-terrorism-among-muslim-americans/)** > > Recent events have raised questions about the threat of homegrown terrorism in the U.S., but survey results show that Muslim Americans overwhelmingly reject extremism. > [@](#): > > Recent events such as the Fort Hood shootings and the arrest of five Muslim American students in Pakistan have raised questions about the threat of homegrown terrorism in the United States. However, the Pew Research Center’s comprehensive portrait of the Muslim American population suggests it is less likely to be a fertile breeding ground for terrorism than Muslim minority communities in other countries. Violent jihad is discordant with the values, outlook and attitudes of the vast majority of Muslim Americans, most of whom reject extremism. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/567 "2016-06-13T18:49:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, we just need to have a better vetting process. Start with asking them how they feel about equal rights for women and tolerance for gays. Dude, we can’t even get the ERA passed, we still have people wondering out loud if America is ready for a female president, we have dozens of groups looking to sue the president over his executive order regarding allowing transpeople to use the bathroom without interference, we still, a year later, have religious groups fighting gay marriage, we still see regular - sometimes lethal - attacks on womens healthcare and family planning. Equal rights for women and tolerance for gays are ideals for which we’re still fighting. What on earth makes you think that the bigots in the Republican party would agree to admitting only people who would vote Democrat? These particular Muslims didn’t bring homophobia with them. They found it here, waiting to welcome them with open arms. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/568 "2016-06-13T18:51:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [x.com](https://mobile.twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/741983463721553920?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) > > Imagine that. Presidential candidates sleep. :eek: And when they wake up to find 50 people dead, they post a gleeful little self-congratulatory pile of crap about “I was right! Neener neener” And then go on to insinuate that the sitting president is somehow WANTING terrorism to happen, because reasons. Maybe it would be best if the man-baby went back to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/569 "2016-06-13T18:57:10Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > At what point will you stop moving the goalposts? Once again you were wrong about what the world was doing, even the Muslim world regarding ISIS. > > BTW, the same poll you are pointing at also shows that the vast majority of Muslims are against using terrorism as in suicide bombings to defend Islam. > > In America the support of using terrorism as a way to impose their views on others is even less: > > [Little Support for Terrorism Among Muslim Americans | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewforum.org/2009/12/17/little-support-for-terrorism-among-muslim-americans/) this isn’t about X% as a number; its about that even 20%, 30%, etc. of Muslims overall is millions of people. Wouldbe terrorists only need to be right once to commit terrorist jihad, and one a few thousand people need to have sympathies to make government do this or that (per elections). Given that its not just that certain views are prevalent, but the intensity is high enough to mean states kill apostates, non-modest women, LGB people, etc. as a matter of public policy, America has a right to be vigilant about immigration, and to call out this kind of sickery. Want a troubling number tho? The [sheer hatred for Jews that comes form the Muslim world](http://global100.adl.org/#map). Jews have actually been a productive winners, not losers, and a storied group in America without a history of massive terror attacks or apologies for. Having tons of immigration where 3/4 people are anti-Semites put them at risk, both physically, socially, and politically. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/570 "2016-06-13T19:20:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > this isn’t about X% as a number; its about that even 20%, 30%, etc. of Muslims overall is millions of people. Wouldbe terrorists only need to be right once to commit terrorist jihad, and one a few thousand people need to have sympathies to make government do this or that (per elections). Given that its not just that certain views are prevalent, but the intensity is high enough to mean states kill apostates, non-modest women, LGB people, etc. as a matter of public policy, America has a right to be vigilant about immigration, and to call out this kind of sickery. And what it is really clear is that the right wing media also did a number on you, the immigrants that are allowed in do have a very extensive review before coming in. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Want a troubling number tho? The [sheer hatred for Jews that comes form the Muslim world](http://global100.adl.org/#map). Jews have actually been a productive winners, not losers, and a storied group in America without a history of massive terror attacks or apologies for. Having tons of immigration where 3/4 people are anti-Semites put them at risk, both physically, socially, and politically. So, just like Trump you completely missed Muhammad Ali. 🙂 Again, that is a number that I have not missed before, but what you missed is that the number is not counting just Muslins. The point stands that many of the Muslim immigrants that we are taking in are being accepted because they risked their lives, either supporting American values or demanding change, just as you are demanding. The knee jerk reaction demanded only plays in the hands of the terrorists and dictators in the Muslim world because: Why should the Muslims that would like to change their situation look at the west for support or guidance? When the end result is that we will shut our doors to them if the repression or massacres forces them to become refugees? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/571 "2016-06-13T19:21:35Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And when they wake up to find 50 people dead, they post a gleeful little self-congratulatory pile of crap about “I was right! Neener neener” > > And then go on to insinuate that the sitting president is somehow WANTING terrorism to happen, because reasons. > > Maybe it would be best if the man-baby went back to sleep. I’m telling you, it’s rather hopeless with most Trump supporters. I had a confrontation with one this weekend. She started off by stating that she could not support socialism in any way shape or form. I tried the, “schools, roads, police, fire department, army,” gamut, but she was having none of it. She started feeding me line after line of bullshit, claiming facts, with that air of, “how dare you not believe me.” A curled lip, a raised eyebrow, a pointed finger. But being this was in the middle of my niece’s graduation party, I decided not to tell her that she was completely full of shit and an apparent true moron. Instead, when I couldn’t laugh her off any more I just said, “I don’t believe anything your saying,” and excused myself from the conversation. She was going on about some video of “illegal Mexicans” beating up old people and children. She was bitching about why should her tax money go toward free cars for Somalian immigrants … WTF? … and when she told me that her health insurance went up by a full quarter of her pre-tax income - that’s not what she pays, that’s how much it went up by - thanks Obama. That’s when I had to tap out. At least her husband’s argument - “Hillary? Yeah right.” - was a little easier to refute. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/572 "2016-06-13T20:16:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [x.com](https://mobile.twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/741983463721553920?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) > > Imagine that. Presidential candidates sleep. :eek: Which never had anything to do with my point. You were the one who brought up sleeping, because you thought I was criticizing Orangehead for not being awake when the Orlando shootings happened. Which I wasn’t, and explained again further on. We return you from this non sequitur break to your regularly-scheduled program. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/573 "2016-06-13T20:33:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It probably confuses you because it’s false – liberals and progressives (including Obama) criticize Muslims all the time. They may not make sweeping negative generalizations about a religion of billions… And yet they’re perfectly happy to make sweeping generalizations about Christians, conservatives, Republicans, etc., all of whose alleged or real misdoings pale in the face of Islamic misdoings. And among that religion of billions are entire countries where the majority of the population favors harsh, punitive, sexist and anti-gay attitudes and practices. I’d bet my last dollar that if a country the size of England or France or Germany were to have populations that favored and enforced the punitive and sexist Christian notions of 500 or a 1,000 years ago, sweeping negative attacks from the left here would be unrelenting. Basically, activism by the left in the U.S. comes mostly in the form of upsetting mainstream standards. If they really cared about rights and suffering and (nowadays) hurt feelings, they wouldn’t have been so blasé about drugs, crime, broken (or never fully formed) families, lousy educational practices and the other things in this country that cause so much human suffering but which are either championed by or ignored by the left. So, Christianity being mainstream, it comes in for a lot of criticism and mockery, and Islam being the minority (at least here in the U.S.), lefties are all about either defending Muslims or turning a blind eye to the horrendous suffering or oppression hundreds of millions of them have to live with and under for little reason other than the fact that mainstream America has become hostile to it in the wake of 9/11 and after having gained greater knowledge of what life under Islamic rule in many countries is really like. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/574 "2016-06-13T20:42:28Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Equal rights for women and tolerance for gays are ideals for which we’re still fighting. What on earth makes you think that the bigots in the Republican party would agree to admitting only people who would vote Democrat?f > > These particular Muslims didn’t bring homophobia with them. They found it here, waiting to welcome them with open arms. Yup, spot on. If immigrants are refused entry unless they essentially claim secular humanist positions, then any God-fearin’ politician seriously pushing for this will have some major 's’plaining to do. Should it now be our official position that anyone who sincerely believes the most un-PC aspects of their faiths is dangerous until proven otherwise? Because if that’s the case, there is little reason our concern should be limited to immigrants. Wasn’t it only last year some domestic “Christian extremist” shot up Planned Parenthood? But I guess guys like him and Bundy et al. are okay. The anti-gay/anti-transgender atmosphere the conservatives have cultivated in recent months should not be ignored as we handicap this tragedy. Intolerant, hysterical, and moralistic rhetoric helps create the conditions that make violent cuckoos go off. Robert Dear apparently was whipped up into his anti-Planned Parenthood frenzy due in part to opportunistic politicians trying to exploit sensationalized stories for attention. And so too we have the Orlando shooter, who also may have taken his cue from the environment. Do I think ISIS inspired his actions? Yup, in the same sense that I think being tipsy “inspires” someone to do something they’d be too inhibited to do otherwise. ISIS represented a name he could conveniently align himself with, that would perhaps make his actions appear more profound and meaningful that they really were. In truth, all he was a small, pathetic, hateful and possibly mentally ill man who let homophobia consume him. As long as people in positions of power indulge and pander to homophobic viewpoints, then people like Mateez will continue to exist on the fringes. With or without ISIS to give them “liquid-courage”. Even if Trump was capable of talking about this stuff with any kind of nuance or self-reflection, he wouldn’t be able to do so. Why? Because his base wants to see this as only being an ISIS issue, rather than a “this is the kind of shit that happens when bigotry gets too much airtime” issue or “this is the kind of shit that happens when angry unstable people come in contact with assault rifles” issue. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/575 "2016-06-13T21:18:47Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’m well aware of that. What I’m also aware of is that governments around the world are NOT spending billions of dollars and thousands of man/hours to fight Christian, Hindu, Jewish, and Bahaii-inspired terrorism. Must have missed the IRA, the Saffron terror in India, and those Jewish issues which have been a mainspring of terror incidents on both sides of the, er, “debate” since 1948. These are just the ones who come to mind, I’m sure there are others. Not denying that “radical Islamism” isn’t front and center nowadays, but to argue that it’s only “them” and never “us”… well, that’s not supported by the record. But, yeah, got me on B’ahaii. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/576 "2016-06-13T21:24:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And yet they’re perfectly happy to make sweeping generalizations about Christians, conservatives, Republicans, etc., all of whose alleged or real misdoings pale in the face of Islamic misdoings. I don’t do this, and neither does Obama (that I’m aware of). Such generalizations are wrong no matter what huge and diverse group is being generalized about. > [@](#): > > Basically, activism by the left in the U.S. comes mostly in the form of upsetting mainstream standards. If they really cared about rights and suffering and (nowadays) hurt feelings, they wouldn’t have been so blasé about drugs, crime, broken (or never fully formed) families, lousy educational practices and the other things in this country that cause so much human suffering but which are either championed by or ignored by the left. So, Christianity being mainstream, it comes in for a lot of criticism and mockery, and Islam being the minority (at least here in the U.S.), lefties are all about either defending Muslims or turning a blind eye to the horrendous suffering or oppression hundreds of millions of them have to live with and under for little reason other than the fact that mainstream America has become hostile to it in the wake of 9/11 and after having gained greater knowledge of what life under Islamic rule in many countries is really like. This is, not surprisingly, yet another inaccurate characterization of the motivations of liberals and progressives, who do actually push hard again all the sorts of bad things you describe here. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/577 "2016-06-13T21:30:54Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Must have missed the IRA, the Saffron terror in India, and those Jewish issues which have been a mainspring of terror incidents on both sides of the, er, “debate” since 1948. These are just the ones who come to mind, I’m sure there are others. Well, most of the problem where Israel is concerned stems from Muslim opposition to and violence toward it. And I’m totally unaware of governments all over the world spending billions of dollars and instituting vast security measures to protect themselves from Irish or Indian or Israeli terrorism. The conflicts you mention were relatively local and had little effect on most countries around the world, whereas Islamic terrorism is a global problem that is growing worse by the day. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/578 "2016-06-13T21:36:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, most of the problem where Israel is concerned stems from Muslim opposition to and violence toward it. And I’m totally unaware of governments all over the world spending billions of dollars and instituting vast security measures to protect themselves from Irish or Indian or Israeli terrorism. The conflicts you mention were relatively local and had little effect on most countries around the world, whereas Islamic terrorism is a global problem that is growing worse by the day. Touche! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/579 "2016-06-13T21:36:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …And I’m totally unaware of governments all over the world spending billions of dollars and instituting vast security measures to protect themselves from Irish…terrorism… England? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/580 "2016-06-13T21:44:08Z")
So because many terrorists are Islamic, it justifies religious/racial profiling and indiscriminate banning? Sorry, but no. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/581 "2016-06-13T21:53:51Z")
Former Republican senator Larry Pressler endorses Clinton. He won’t be the last. I hope Romney does as well. > **[Former GOP senator endorses Clinton after Orlando shooting](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/283330-former-gop-senator-endorses-clinton-after-orlando-shooting/)** > > “I can’t believe I’m endorsing Hillary Clinton for president, but I am,” Larry Pressler said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=30)