# Trump vs Clinton in the General Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989 "2016-05-17T13:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/682 "2016-06-16T12:37:02Z")
Sam Harris absolutely demolished Drumpf on [his most recent podcast](https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-end-of-faith-sessions-2) (and defended Clinton, albeit somewhat tepidly). I liked it so much that, lacking any official transcript, I transcribed a bunch of it myself: > [@](#): > > One thing you can’t say about [Hillary Clinton] is that she’s unqualified, or that she is profoundly ignorant of how the world works, or that she’s unintelligent. These are not things you can say about her no matter how much you hate her personally. President Obama endorsed her today and he said “I don’t think there’s ever been someone so qualified to hold this office.” > > Now perhaps that’s slightly hyperbolic, but it’s not a crazy thing to say. Imagine someone saying that of Trump. That would be a statement so rankly partisan and propagandistic as to be indistinguishable from mental illness. It is a claim that cannot be made with a straight face. That difference matters. In fact, what you could say of Trump is the exact opposite: he is perhaps the least qualified candidate we’ve ever had for that office. > > I’m not a historian. Perhaps there’s somebody I’m not thinking of. But that’s not far from true–it is certainly true in our lifetime. > > […] > > Michael Kinsley once said of Al Gore that he was an old person’s idea of a young person…[Trump] is a poor person’s idea of a rich person. I mean, he’s the fat cat in the comic strip who brags about how much money he has. “I am rich, I am so rich, I am really really rich” and people applaud! > > At the core of what bothers me about Trump is the vacuousness of his speech. He will literally say the same thing three times in a row and it was meaningless the first time. The problem is, the caricatures of him are true! He will say “it is going to be amazing, you won’t believe how amazing it will be. It will be very very amazing”. This is an intellectual problem. Smart people don’t talk this way. > > […] > > A desire not to seem incoherent: this is something that intelligent, well-informed people tend to have. When you hear someone speak at length on topics that are crucial to the most important enterprise they’re engaging and all they’ve got is bluster and bombast and banality, strewn with factual errors, it is quite irrational to believe there’s a brilliant mind behind all that just waiting to get out. Trump is not hiding his light under a bushel. He’s all bushel! > > […] > > Trump has ideas that are extraordinarily destructive and he has a relationship with his own ignorance that is dangerous. He thinks the notion of human caused climate change is a Chinese hoax meant to destroy our manufacturing base. The prospect of a president believing that is terrifying. Clinton email scandal: what do you actually think was going on there? You think she’s a spy and she was sharing state secrets with the Russians? No. She wanted to keep her email private and didn’t understand the implications of running stuff on her own server. It was a sloppy, stupid thing to do. > > With Trump we’re talking about somebody who has ideas about what our nation should do that are anchored to nothing other than his own personal urges. > > This is who Clinton is running against. We have to get out of the wilderness of false equivalence here. > > […] > > Trump shows every sign of being that sort of character where a combination of hubris and ignorance of the sort we have never seen could create extraordinary economic and political chaos. There is nothing like that on Clinton side, and a lesser of two evils argument makes perfect sense here. > > The amazing thing about Trump is that he is so terrible that he’s completely reset everyone’s expectations of what is conceivably acceptable in a presidential candidate. You’ve seen the footage of him openly mocking the disabled reporter, right? Watch the footage and imagine what that would’ve done to any other person’s campaign. > > Imagine President Obama eight years ago doing that. Imagine Hillary Clinton today doing that. That’s the end of the campaign! Trump has done a dozen things like that that are so unpresidential, that show such poor judgment, such a lack of impulse control, such a pettiness, such narcissism, such emotional and intellectual immaturity, it would be inconceivable to promote such a person in any other context as a candidate of a major political party and yet here we are with Trump. > > And I do share the view that’s been expressed by many, and that I actually expressed early on, that liberals in their political correctness are largely culpable for this because we are all tired of political correctness. Being a bully and a braggart and a buffoon is not the only way to disavow political correctness. But I believe it is true that everyone’s loss of patience with politically correct lies has allowed one of the most fraudulent and egocentric people who has ever walked the earth launch what is now an all too plausible bid for the presidency. > > […] > > I just feel like I’m watching our country play game of chicken and there’s no one in the other car. It’s unnerving. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/683 "2016-06-16T12:58:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s starting to look as if the only real path is to just dump Trump. Seems like even many of his supporters aren’t sure about him anymore, so what do we have to lose? What is there to lose? The main loss would be the fact that the person who won the primary would be removed and replaced with someone that didn’t. You can’t rerun the primary, so how do you decide who to replace him with? Cruz because he came in second place? Kasich because he was the last one to drop out? Romney because he was the nominee the last time? Whoever Trump selects as VP assuming he’s chosen someone at the time of his withdrawal? ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/684 "2016-06-16T14:47:58Z")
If the GOP conspires to take the nomination away from Trump, I think Cruz is the only one they can even sort-of credibly put up in his place. Romney is out and would have to rebuild his organization from scratch, and no one else has the support it would take to give their nomination a fig-leaf of legitimacy. I think once the dust settled, he (Cruz) could probably build enough momentum to make a contest of it; he at least has a campaign organization he can un-suspend (and which, unlike Trump’s, is a real campaign, with proper staffing and a GOTV operation). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/685 "2016-06-16T18:01:25Z")
Such a tactic would be tantamount to an admission that the Pubs have lost the general anyway. At least (and I do mean least) with Trump they can maintain some appearance of fairness. Nope, they picked their horse and they’re stuck with him. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/686 "2016-06-17T02:54:14Z")
True, but if you want Republicans to disown him, what better way than to just deny him the nomination? Anyway, Trump nailed Clinton good on taking $30 million from countries that execute gays. It probably won’t make a difference in the election, but it does remind people that these countries represent “moderate Islam”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/687 "2016-06-17T03:19:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True, but if you want Republicans to disown him, what better way than to just deny him the nomination? > > Anyway, Trump nailed Clinton good on taking $30 million from countries that execute gays. It probably won’t make a difference in the election, but it does remind people that these countries represent “moderate Islam”. So much for your promise to not carry water for Trump uh? Incidentally if that is money for the election it would be illegal, so Hannity and Trump should come with the evidence; if they are referring to speeches or the Clinton foundation, unless those countries earmarked the money to hate gays it is more likely that the reason to take the money is to use it to fix serious problems all over the world. It’s a compromise and I do think that the republicans today would prefer to not help other nations. Regardless if they would not accept money from questionable nations (and if one remembers history the Republicans are not squeamish about it either). And if one wonders about it for a moment this talking point looks silly when one remembers that previous Republican administrations did not complain about the money and help they got for intervening in the Middle East from those “friends of democracy”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/688 "2016-06-17T03:28:23Z")
Yes, that’s what the billionaire sheikhs want, it’s to help people all over the world. Such nice people, those oil tycoons. So caring, their people live in poverty and they distract them by encouraging them to kill gays, and Westerners in general. Clinton should give back the money. And I’m not carrying water for Trump. I’m refusing to carry water for the oil sheikhs. Leave that to our leaders, who have decided that these are our allies. I understand why. The real moderates don’t command armies. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/689 "2016-06-17T04:26:43Z")
Adaher is right, but let’s not get into false equivalencies here. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/690 "2016-06-17T04:39:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And I’m not carrying water for Trump. I’m refusing to carry water for the oil sheikhs. Leave that to our leaders, who have decided that these are our allies. I understand why. The real moderates don’t command armies. Nor are those moderates the best influence against Iran. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/691 "2016-06-17T05:12:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yes, that’s what the billionaire sheikhs want, it’s to help people all over the world. Such nice people, those oil tycoons. So caring, their people live in poverty and they distract them by encouraging them to kill gays, and Westerners in general. > > Clinton should give back the money. Missing the point, it should be clear that those sheiks also give money to the Red Crescent (the equivalent to the red cross) and I could agree with you that they are not really being all innocent in the help they are giving there either, but it would be really silly to demand that they return the money that people that do really care and do help also in women’s and children issues are using for good. > [@adaher](#): > > And I’m not carrying water for Trump. I’m refusing to carry water for the oil sheikhs. Leave that to our leaders, who have decided that these are our allies. I understand why. The real moderates don’t command armies. Sorry, but you did carry his water by telling us that Trump had a good point, he did not. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/692 "2016-06-17T05:25:57Z")
EVen Trump can be right sometimes. The oil sheikhs are not philanthropists, unless you consider funding terrorism to be philanthropy. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/693 "2016-06-17T05:30:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > EVen Trump can be right sometimes. The oil sheikhs are not philanthropists, unless you consider funding terrorism to be philanthropy. When you throw shit in every direction, eventually some will hit the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/694 "2016-06-17T05:33:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > EVen Trump can be right sometimes. The oil sheikhs are not philanthropists, unless you consider funding terrorism to be philanthropy. :rolleyes: I already told you that the money they give does not clean them, but denying that the money also benefits what even the sheiks oppose is something that should not be jettison just because it is not pure enough for you. BTW Trump is on record of not including his sheik friends in his promised Muslim ban. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/695 "2016-06-17T11:19:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > First let’s see if she can crack a majority. In any other election year a candidate with [Clinton’s numbers](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trumps-unfavorables-spike-clintons-challenged-poll/story?id=39856303)would be toast: 55% unfavorable overall, 63% unfavorable with independents and 25% unfavorable within her own party. But this isn’t any other year, and Trump’s numbers are fucking dire: not just the 70% unfavorable overall but when he only cracks a majority in “favorable” in his own party - and that only 65% - and has unfavorables amongst blacks at **94%** , Hispanics at 89% and college grads at 75%, things look very bad. He didn’t even get over the line with conservatives. So Clinton is terrible and will struggle to get a majority, but Trump is still far behind her. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/696 "2016-06-17T11:31:46Z")
True. The real suspense, iMO, is what the third party numbers will be. These two candidates are the best thing to ever happen to the Greens and LP. If only the Greens were running Ralph Nader for the first time… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/697 "2016-06-17T11:40:39Z")
The Greens will only do well if the “Bernie or Bust” crowd defect en masse to them. They may see a slight uptick but I don’t see Stein getting Perot-level numbers. Gary Johnson will probably benefit more, although again I think many of the people currently expressing support for him will chicken out on the day and vote for the guy with the ® next to his name. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/698 "2016-06-17T11:59:51Z")
Stein with Perot-like numbers? No, I don’t think there are that many liberals in the country, even if we assumed they all voted Green. But she will beat Nader’s 2000 total. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/699 "2016-06-17T12:57:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Stein with Perot-like numbers? No, I don’t think there are that many liberals in the country, even if we assumed they all voted Green. > > But she will beat Nader’s 2000 total. Possible but not probable. Another one for the predictions thread? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/700 "2016-06-17T13:56:55Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > In any other election year a candidate with [Clinton’s numbers](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trumps-unfavorables-spike-clintons-challenged-poll/story?id=39856303)would be toast: 55% unfavorable overall, 63% unfavorable with independents and 25% unfavorable within her own party. But this isn’t any other year, and Trump’s numbers are fucking dire: not just the 70% unfavorable overall but when he only cracks a majority in “favorable” in his own party - and that only 65% - and has unfavorables amongst blacks at **94%** , Hispanics at 89% and college grads at 75%, things look very bad. He didn’t even get over the line with conservatives. > > So Clinton is terrible and will struggle to get a majority, but Trump is still far behind her. That ABC/WaPo poll is a lot of fun. I enjoyed [RedState’s take:](http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/06/15/new-abcwapo-poll-everyone-hates-donald-trump/) > [@](#): > > Overall, 70% of Americans view Trump unfavorably, which is remarkable in and of itself, but even more remarkable is the fact that 56% of Americans have a view of Trump that is “strongly unfavorable.” Just in case you are wondering, “strongly unfavorable” is code for “will never, ever vote for.” > > Literally every group in America dislikes Trump. The last holdout in previous polls was white voters without a college education, who viewed him slightly favorably in the last ABC/WaPo poll. In May’s poll, these voters had a +14 favorable view of Trump, now they have a -7 unfavorable view of Trump. > > Every other group in America despises Trump much, much worse. He has a -38 favorability rating among independents. He has a -54 favorability rating among women. He has an absolutely astounding (but not surprising) -78 rating among Hispanics… and -20 favorability rating among whites. Voters of every income strata dislike Trump by at least -30%. There are also increasing signs that Trump’s unity bounce is good and over: > > > [@](#): > > > > On the Republican side, an even higher 34 percent express unfavorable views of Trump, reversing about half of the gains Trump made from April (42 percent unfavorable) to May (28 percent). > > Some portion of these people who view Trump unfavorably may yet end up voting for him because they dislike Hillary worse (although the poll indicates that Hillary is overall disliked MUCH less broadly and deeply than Trump). However, the number of people who actually like Trump and are excited to vote for him has pretty much been reduced to either people who are not paying attention, or garbage human beings, open racists, demagogues, or the not very bright. Which is to say, it’s back to where it was when this whole thing started. > [@Gyrate](#): > > The Greens will only do well if the “Bernie or Bust” crowd defect en masse to them. They may see a slight uptick but I don’t see Stein getting Perot-level numbers. Gary Johnson will probably benefit more, although again I think many of the people currently expressing support for him will chicken out on the day and vote for the guy with the (R) next to his name. I’m not so sure they will chicken out if it looks like Drumpf is going down in flames anyway. Why bother to hold their nose and vote for someone they hate, who is pretty much a guaranteed loser? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/701 "2016-06-17T14:02:37Z")
If that last 39-29 poll holds up, there’s just no reason to vote for Clinton if you don’t want. Let her get her sub-40 plurality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=36)