# Trump vs Clinton in the General Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989 "2016-05-17T13:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/162 "2016-05-20T20:57:51Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I have no idea. And maybe militarizing the border is not the answer. But although I recognize that there is a problem, I have a visceral reaction to the idea of building a wall on the US/Mexican border. It just seems very wrong to me. Does having a fence, or a border checkpoint seem very wrong to you? We have those right now too. > [@](#): > > Israel and the United States are two very different countries. Israel is surrounded by countries that want them annihilated. The US is not. We are a country of immigrants so in my mind putting up a wall to physically barricade us in & keep people out is in direct contrast to our country’s philosophy of welcoming the huddled masses who want to live in freedom. You know there is a process to come into the country right? We don’t welcome the huddled masses carte blanche. ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/163 "2016-05-20T22:00:01Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Israel and the United States are two very different countries. Israel is surrounded by countries that want them annihilated. The US is not. While it is true that Mexico does not want to annihilate us, I am not fine with illegal immigrants committing rape, murders, drug smuggling, torture, weapons smuggling, human trafficking, etc. at or just within our borders. > [@](#): > > We are a country of immigrants so in my mind putting up a wall to physically barricade us in & keep people out is in direct contrast to our country’s philosophy of welcoming the huddled masses who want to live in freedom. I have never seen Trump state anywhere that he wants to stop Mexicans from legally immigrating but I welcome evidence to the contrary. I have seen him state multiple times, on his website for example, that he wants to curb illegal immigration and not immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/164 "2016-05-21T01:34:27Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > While it is true that Mexico does not want to annihilate us, I am not fine with illegal immigrants committing rape, murders, drug smuggling, torture, weapons smuggling, human trafficking, etc. at or just within our borders. Are you fine with young white male citizens doing exactly the same thing? Because their crime rate is _higher_. > [@](#): > > I have never seen Trump state anywhere that he wants to stop Mexicans from legally immigrating but I welcome evidence to the contrary. I have seen him state multiple times, on his website for example, that he wants to curb illegal immigration and not immigration. Except, of course, for Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/165 "2016-05-21T01:42:33Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > While it is true that Mexico does not want to annihilate us, I am not fine with illegal immigrants committing rape, murders, drug smuggling, torture, weapons smuggling, human trafficking, etc. at or just within our borders. It’s an absolute miracle that you manage to creep out of bed in the morning, and peep out of the front door without whimpering in abject fear. What a strange, scary world you live in! ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/166 "2016-05-21T02:15:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Are you fine with young white male citizens doing exactly the same thing? Because their crime rate is _higher_. I’m not fine with any demographic committing a crime but if you can drastically reduce the crimes committed by outside groups, eg. illegal immigrants, with a wall/barrier (and I’ve cited two examples of this working) then I’ll take it. If you have a suggestion on how to reduce crime with the same effectiveness as Yuma or Israel I want to hear it. If not? Apples to oranges. > [@Euphonious Polemic](#): > > It’s an absolute miracle that you manage to creep out of bed in the morning, and peep out of the front door without whimpering in abject fear. Aww, you’re cute! A thinly-veiled insult that I’m somehow scared because I show concern? No, I’m not worried about myself. I am worried for [others that cannot or choose not to defend themselves](http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of-serious-crimes-of-illegal-aliens). But please, use more insults to show me how irrational or less manly that concern is. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/167 "2016-05-21T03:18:36Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > I am worried for [others that cannot or choose not to defend themselves](http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of-serious-crimes-of-illegal-aliens). > . Yay! You’ve provided some examples of crimes committed by illegal aliens. Can you understand the difference between anecdotes and data? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/168 "2016-05-21T03:56:32Z")
Well, yeah, maybe, but you can’t fault the unimpeachable and impartial source! ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/169 "2016-05-21T04:54:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Trump is not running for leader of\*\* “world government”\*\*. As far as I know, he has never brought up a worldwide currency. Given his jingoism, he is the last person in the world that you should expect agree to let the US be governed by something like a UN or agree to hand money to foreigners. > > So no, what are _you_ talking about? World-government / world-currency is just my ideal wish for an ideal world. (I think EU is a beautiful creation. Only concern is the porous external borders and people - mostly young Muslim males, infiltrating from North Africa and Middle east. I am sure Britain and EU can work out differences on trade deals but external borders is the main concern.) Short of that (world-govt.), Trump is: 1. A candidate with possibilities of disruptive changes in policies, relative currencies strength etc. 2. A vote against the status quo. I love US and American people and wish the best for them. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/170 "2016-05-21T05:04:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > You have a poll, I have a poll. > > [http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/clinton-leads-trump-in-latest-national-poll-689532995976](http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/clinton-leads-trump-in-latest-national-poll-689532995976) > > Poll taken 5/14-5/17. Did you read my next post? Btw I agree with you that Hillary is comfortably ahead. More than what the polls are showing at present. Once Bernie is out, she will be even more ahead in the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/171 "2016-05-21T07:43:56Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > I’m not fine with any demographic committing a crime but if you can drastically reduce the crimes committed by outside groups, eg. illegal immigrants, with a wall/barrier (and I’ve cited two examples of this working) then I’ll take it. > > If you have a suggestion on how to reduce crime with the same effectiveness as Yuma or Israel I want to hear it. If not? Apples to oranges. I have a suggestion how to reduce dog whistles to fear… ---
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/172 "2016-05-21T15:02:11Z")
> [@Euphonious Polemic](#): > > Yay! You’ve provided some examples of crimes committed by illegal aliens. Can you understand the difference between anecdotes and data? Do you have anything to actually add to the debate? > [@elucidator](#): > > Well, yeah, maybe, but you can’t fault the unimpeachable and impartial source! Really? I’ll go down the list for you. Here [another source for the murder of Earl Olander](http://www.kare11.com/news/crime/2-to-be-sentenced-in-farmers-murder/177083603), [one for Oscar Navarro](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/89-stab-and-slash-wounds-excised-liver-test-jurors-endurance-in-murder-trial/2016/04/30/7fa7c81e-0e5b-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html), and [Juan Razo](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/us/ohio-killing/), and… Oh forget it. I don’t want to debate the impartiality of a source if you can’t be bothered to do a simple Google search. > [@Johnny Ace](#): > > I have a suggestion how to reduce dog whistles to fear… So…nothing? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/173 "2016-05-21T16:38:09Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > Really? I’ll go down the list for you. Here [another source for the murder of Earl Olander](http://www.kare11.com/news/crime/2-to-be-sentenced-in-farmers-murder/177083603), [one for Oscar Navarro](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/89-stab-and-slash-wounds-excised-liver-test-jurors-endurance-in-murder-trial/2016/04/30/7fa7c81e-0e5b-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html), and [Juan Razo](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/us/ohio-killing/), and… I’ve not studied this sub-debate but wonder what point is being made. There are about 15,000 murders in the U.S. annually; about 3.6% of the population is illegal aliens; so one might expect 540 of the murders to be committed by illegals. If the illegals kill less than 540 people, then one can argue that they are beneficial and _lower the murder rate!_ Do illegals murder more or less than 540 annually? I’ve no idea, but wonder what relevance stories of individual murders have … unless you link to 540 of them! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/174 "2016-05-21T16:47:04Z")
> [@ATLHawk](#): > > Really? I’ll go down the list for you. Here [another source for the murder of Earl Olander](http://www.kare11.com/news/crime/2-to-be-sentenced-in-farmers-murder/177083603), [one for Oscar Navarro](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/89-stab-and-slash-wounds-excised-liver-test-jurors-endurance-in-murder-trial/2016/04/30/7fa7c81e-0e5b-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html), and [Juan Razo](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/us/ohio-killing/), and… > > Oh forget it. I don’t want to debate the impartiality of a source if you can’t be bothered to do a simple Google search. > > So…nothing? What I can see clearly is that **Euphonious Polemic** is right, your points do ignore that you are [nutpiking](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nutpicking). Anecdotes can indeed be real, but the bigoted sources out there continue to tell you to ignore the big picture. [http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/anecdotes-evidence-setting-record-straight-immigrants-and-crime-0](http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/anecdotes-evidence-setting-record-straight-immigrants-and-crime-0) > [@](#): > > Anti-immigrant activists and politicians are fond of relying upon anecdotes to support their oft-repeated claim that immigrants, especially undocumented immigrants, are dangerous criminals. This mythical claim is usually based on rhetorical sleight of hand in which individual stories of heinous crimes committed by immigrants are presented as “proof” that we must restrict immigration or “get tough” on the undocumented in order to save the lives of U.S. citizens. While these kinds of arguments are emotionally powerful, they are intellectually dishonest. There is no doubt that dangerous criminals must be punished, and that immigrants who are dangerous criminals should not be allowed to enter the United States or should be deported if they already are here. But harsh immigration policies are not effective in fighting crime because—as numerous studies over the past 100 years have shown—immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born, and high rates of immigration are not associated with higher rates of crime. This holds true for both legal immigrants and the undocumented, regardless of their country of origin or level of education. > [@](#): > > Conclusion > > The problem of crime in the United States is not caused or even aggravated by immigrants, regardless of their legal status. This is hardly surprising since immigrants come to the United States to pursue economic and educational opportunities not available in their home countries and to build better lives for themselves and their families. As a result, they have little to gain and much to lose by breaking the law. Undocumented immigrants in particular have even more reason to not run afoul of the law given the risk of deportation that their lack of legal status entails. Public policies must be based on facts, not anecdotes or emotions. And the fact is that the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/175 "2016-05-21T17:00:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I agree that Trump is a buffoon. But I have to dock a few points from Hillary for stating that it appeared to be a terrorist act. That seems premature, particularly since nobody has taken credit for the crash. A former SecState, still receiving frequent briefings, just might know something we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/176 "2016-05-21T17:13:43Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > World-government / world-currency is just my ideal wish for an ideal world. (I think EU is a beautiful creation. Only concern is the porous external borders and people - mostly young Muslim males, infiltrating from North Africa and Middle east. I am sure Britain and EU can work out differences on trade deals but external borders is the main concern.) Yeah, well, if we had a world government, there would be no “external borders,” and all internal borders would be porous to the extent they existed at all, like county lines, and no region would be able to keep out “infiltrators” from any other region. So be careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/177 "2016-05-21T17:18:32Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Does your life depend on stopping Trump from becoming president? Some lives might. Clinton is a warhawk within known and normal parameters. Trump is an unpredictable, hot-tempered loose cannon. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/178 "2016-05-21T17:27:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeah, well, if we had a world government, there would be no “external borders,” and all internal borders would be porous to the extent they existed at all, like county lines, and no region would be able to keep out “infiltrators” from any other region. So be careful what you wish for. I have thought about it…may be initially have restrictions on unstable, religious fanatic countries. And lift them slowly as they become less fanatic. Things can work out if there is conviction and full resolve to achieve the goal. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/179 "2016-05-21T17:36:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A former SecState, still receiving frequent briefings, just might know something we don’t. She doesn’t have any official government position right now. Who would be giving her these briefings? Her campaign advisors? Not that I think she jumped the gun or anything though. Her statement was measured and officials already suggested it was likely foul play. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/180 "2016-05-21T18:58:06Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Is anyone else surprised that the race is this close? What other events might tip the scales in either direction? If Trump can continue to run as the anti-establishment, pro-working class candidate then that will help him. I’m not too worried. If the dems regain the senate, then they can block Trump’s worst ideas, in theory. 2020 is the true election to watch out for. In that election about 40% of all voters will be millennials. Plus the 2020 election will see districts redrawn, so that will give dems a house advantage. If anything, in the long term, a one term Trump presidency is probably good for the progressive movement. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989/181 "2016-05-21T18:59:14Z")
I don’t envy you Americans. You have the choice between a leader and a manager. Trump has the faint possibility of being a great president but the great probability of being a dire one; Clinton has the probability of being an average president but the possibility of being a dire one. Your choice, America. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-in-the-general-election/754989.md?page=10)