# Trump vs. Clinton: worst choice for President ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 11, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692 "2016-03-11T21:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/61 "2016-03-15T17:11:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s not at all clear in the last 13 years. Europe certainly isn’t safer because the US doesn’t do occupations anymore. If long occupations inspire more terrorists, then they certainly are safer. > [@](#): > > The US is more popular today because of the personality of the man in charge, not actual policy changes. If anything, the US is more aggressive and unilateral under Obama than under Bush. It’s just easy to overlook that due to his less grating personality and the lack of troops on the ground. So it’s easy to see why audiences reading about the US in the newspaper might think things are better. For those on the ground in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, opinions might be different. You say things like this that are totally counterfactual. Invading and occupying really are much, much more aggressive, and in the case of the Iraq war, unilateral, then anything Obama has done. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/62 "2016-03-15T21:23:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If long occupations inspire more terrorists, then they certainly are safer. What inspires more terrorists is a hard question to answer. Victory sure helps. Occupation definitely draws a crowd of terrorists. Bombings probably help a lot too. > [@](#): > > You say things like this that are totally counterfactual. Invading and occupying really are much, much more aggressive, and in the case of the Iraq war, unilateral, then anything Obama has done. Name our allies in the bombing of the six countries we’ve been regularly bombing since he became President. There’s no coalition. This is the President just doing what he wants. But instead of a cowboy Texan doing it, it’s a cosmopolitan, biracial law professor. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/63 "2016-03-15T21:25:06Z")
And we all know what you’d be saying about him if he _didn’t_ do any of that. You know it too, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/64 "2016-03-15T21:43:06Z")
Don’t get me wrong, I like that part of his record. I’m just at a loss as to why none of this concerns Democrats anymore. Doesn’t seem like the vast majority of liberals even think about who we’re bombing anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/65 "2016-03-15T21:44:10Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Clinton is terrifically qualified and would make a decent President. Not the best, probably in the upper middle range, but certainly she won’t be the destructive, insane pondscum that either Drumpf or Cruz would be Exactly why I’ll vote for her. The history thing has a component too, but even with all the BS the mudslingers are throwing, she’s the only one of the candidates I really trust in office. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/66 "2016-03-15T21:45:26Z")
But that does that say about our choices, that the one who most people think is dishonest is the best choice? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/67 "2016-03-15T21:54:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What inspires more terrorists is a hard question to answer. Victory sure helps. Occupation definitely draws a crowd of terrorists. Bombings probably help a lot too. Very possibly – and invasion/occupation will create a lot more than anything else. > [@](#): > > Name our allies in the bombing of the six countries we’ve been regularly bombing since he became President. There’s no coalition. This is the President just doing what he wants. But instead of a cowboy Texan doing it, it’s a cosmopolitan, biracial law professor. Weak comparison – W invaded and occupied the wrong country, getting hundreds of thousands (or more) killed for nothing. Obama lobs a few missiles and drone strikes, targeting dozens or hundreds. They’re not comparable. Unilaterally invading a country is very, very different than unilaterally launching a few airstrikes and drones. They’re seen very differently _because their actions have been very different_. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/68 "2016-03-15T21:56:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But that does that say about our choices, that the one who most people think is dishonest is the best choice? Partly because the other choice is most likely to be an egomaniacal, racist, sexist, completely inexperienced blowhard who is pretty much guaranteed to severely damage the interests of the country. As I’ve said before, I’d vote for Mickey Mouse before I’d vote for the Donald. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/69 "2016-03-15T21:56:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, I like that part of his record. I’m just at a loss as to why none of this concerns Democrats anymore. Doesn’t seem like the vast majority of liberals even think about who we’re bombing anymore. We care, it’s just that the alternatives are so, so much worse. > [@adaher](#): > > But that does that say about our choices, that the one who most people think is dishonest is the best choice? You’ll have to provide a cite for that compared to Trump and Cruz, but I think evidence (based on things like Politifact) bears out that she’s far less dishonest then they are. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/70 "2016-03-15T21:59:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, I like that part of his record. Of \*course \*you do. :dubious: The calls for “Boots on the ground!” every time some new group pops up and gets some guns come only from \*your \*side, yanno. > [@](#): > > I’m just at a loss as to why none of this concerns Democrats anymore. Doesn’t seem like the vast majority of liberals even think about who we’re bombing anymore. You seem to think it’s indiscriminate. Or that your mental image of “Democrats” should think so. Well, unlike the Republicans who get all the press, we mostly know the world is \*not \*a cowboy movie. > [@adaher](#): > > But that does that say about our choices, that the one who most people think is dishonest is the best choice? Yes, why _is_ your party acclaiming Trump? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/71 "2016-03-15T22:09:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But that does that say about our choices, that the one who most people think is dishonest is the best choice? There was a crooked man And he had a crooked laugh And he ran a crooked office And he hired a crooked staff He served a crooked term And he did a crooked job And rammed a lot of crooked bills through For a crooked local mob Why back the crooked man When his crooked ways you see? Because the rival candidate Is crookeder than he! – _Mad_ magazine, sometime in the '70s ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/72 "2016-03-15T22:19:29Z")
The above does not, of course, apply as between Clinton and Sanders, but does as between Clinton and Trump. He would have to take two baths just to get dirty. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/73 "2016-03-15T22:22:13Z")
It’s not like we didn’t have decent choices in the primary. A John Kasich vs. Martin O’Malley race may not have had much glitz and excitement as far as the media is concerned, but we wouldn’t be having conversations about qualifications, basic decency, and honesty. It would be a straight up issues, accomplishments, and vision race. But noooooo, the media doesn’t want that, so they give all the coverage to the big names and the loud mouths. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/74 "2016-03-15T22:26:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s not like we didn’t have decent choices in the primary. A John Kasich vs. Martin O’Malley race may not have had much glitz and excitement as far as the media is concerned, but we wouldn’t be having conversations about qualifications, basic decency, and honesty. It would be a straight up issues, accomplishments, and vision race. > > But noooooo, the media doesn’t want that, so they give all the coverage to the big names and the loud mouths. Considering all the harm Kasich has done to women’s health in Ohio, I’m not sure if “basic decency” would fit. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/75 "2016-03-15T22:30:57Z")
Cite that womens’ health has declined in Ohio under Kasich’s watch? How about you eschew the talking point and just say that you don’t like Kasich’s abortion policies. Whether or not that constitutes an affront against basic decency we can all determine for ourselves. I’ll put his record up against Hillary “Not only do I not support any restrictions whatsoever, but I’d like the federal government to pay for abortions” Clinton any day. But all that aside, if we want to be cantankerous we can look at any candidate’s position on the issues or record and decide that something is indecent. But that’s what leadership is about, doing things that are going to piss some people off. Martin O’Malley and Hillary’s husband certainly did some of that with their approach to crime. But that’s an issues-based debate that’s worth having, as opposed to what we’re talking about now, which is mainly who the bigger asshole is or who the bigger liar is or who has the most punchable face or who has a hydration problem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/76 "2016-03-15T22:39:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Cite that womens’ health has declined in Ohio under Kasich’s watch? > > How about you eschew the talking point and just say that you don’t like Kasich’s abortion policies. Whether or not that constitutes an affront against basic decency we can all determine for ourselves. I’ll put his record up against Hillary “Not only do I not support any restrictions whatsoever, but I’d like the federal government to pay for abortions” Clinton any day. > > But all that aside, if we want to be cantankerous we can look at any candidate’s position on the issues or record and decide that something is indecent. But that’s what leadership is about, doing things that are going to piss some people off. Martin O’Malley and Hillary’s husband certainly did some of that with their approach to crime. But that’s an issues-based debate that’s worth having, as opposed to what we’re talking about now, which is mainly who the bigger asshole is or who the bigger liar is or who has the most punchable face or who has a hydration problem. I’ll take back the Kasich comment since it’s a bit of a derail. As to “issues-based debate”, that’s what’s been going on on the Democratic side for months. Actual deep issue discussions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/77 "2016-03-15T22:51:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As to “issues-based debate”, that’s what’s been going on on the Democratic side for months. Actual deep issue discussions. So what happens when Clinton debates Trump? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/78 "2016-03-15T22:53:59Z")
I’ll give you that. The reason it’s not worth as much as it should be is because only one of them is debating issues. The other is repeating what her advisors focus grouped and polled extensively. We can’t even look at the record she touts because she’s had to walk so much of it back. Now if this was a clear cut choice between “the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party” vs. a return to Clintonism, that would be something. But free trade, welfare reform, crime reduction, spending cuts, smaller government, deregulation? She’s against it all now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/79 "2016-03-15T22:56:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what happens when Clinton debates Trump? Pay for your own focus groups so you can find out what Clinton will say while debating Trump. We know what Trump will do: bluster. What Clinton does will be determined by what the focus groups and handlers believe will provide the best contrast without making her look weak. If sticking to issues and being the obviously smarter person in the room works, she’ll do that. If going insult for insult with him works, she’ll do that. What she can’t prepare for is exactly how Trump will choose to attack her. It’s clear that nothing will be out of bounds, and her advisors don’t seem to like bringing up uncomfortable stuff. That’s what was reported in Game Plan and it’s obvious they still won’t bring up taboo subjects with her because her worst moments have been when she’s received those kinds of questions and her responses show just how unprepared she is for that kind of questioning. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692/80 "2016-03-15T23:00:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’ll give you that. The reason it’s not worth as much as it should be is because only one of them is debating issues. The other is repeating what her advisors focus grouped and polled extensively. We can’t even look at the record she touts because she’s had to walk so much of it back. > > Now if this was a clear cut choice between “the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party” vs. a return to Clintonism, that would be something. But free trade, welfare reform, crime reduction, spending cuts, smaller government, deregulation? She’s against it all now. They’re discussing issues. Clinton is obviously very knowledgeable and has presented tons of ideas – maybe they’re focus-group tested, or whatever, but it’s a real discussion on issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-vs-clinton-worst-choice-for-president-ever/748692.md?page=5)