# Trumpcare debacle highlights two types of political persuasion: **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 30, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441 "2017-07-30T15:27:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/1 "2017-07-30T15:27:06Z")
**Type 1** [QUOTE=Interior Secretary Zinke] “Yeah, Senator Murkowski, Big Donnie told me to give you a call. Said to tell you that you’ve got a nice little state here. Be a shame if something were to happen to it. Might depend how you vote, if you get what I mean.” [/QUOTE] **Type 2** > [@](#): > > Over the past week, as Senate Republicans feverishly cobbled together their doomed health care bill, Chuck Schumer, the Democratic leader, made several quiet visits to the private “hideaway” office of John McCain, Republican of Arizona, near the Senate chamber on the Capitol’s first floor. Senator McCain, who recently received a brain cancer diagnosis, was nervous about the bill, which he thought would harm people in his state, and elegiac about members of his storied family, reminiscing about them at some length. > > During those visits and in several phone calls, Mr. Schumer, who had led Democrats in a moment of prayer for Mr. McCain, assured him that they would have the 80-year-old senator’s back in his quest for bipartisan legislation should the health repeal fail — including making sure Mr. McCain’s beloved defense bill was passed. [How Schumer Held Democrats Together Through a Health Care Maelstrom](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/29/us/politics/chuck-schumer-new-york-senate.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![pjacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@pjacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjacks)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/2 "2017-07-30T19:14:02Z")
It’s funny how these Republican politicians grow a conscience after they confront their own mortality. John McCain’s on death’s door, so suddenly he cares about bipartisanship & taking Americans’ healthcare away. My former senator, Mark Kirk, had a stroke & seemed to transform overnight into a moderate republican who favored same-sex marriage & gun control. Do Murkowski & Collins have some health issues that aren’t publicly disclosed, I wonder. 😛 Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/3 "2017-07-30T19:20:17Z")
[Imagine what a party defection (or two (or three) ) would do to national politics.](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/30/mccain-once-almost-left-the-gop-what-about-now-215437) Not necessarily a given, but Sen Maj Leader Daschle apparently came pretty close in 2001 to bringing McCain out of the Republican party. Back then, he may have still had presidential aspirations on his mind; as he battles cancer, maybe he’ll just say Fuck It, and leave the GOP as it drowns in its own feces. All that sweet talking from Schumer may be more than just two old Senate friends sharing a moment. Who was McCain laughing and hugging with on the night of the vote? Pubbies? Or TEH EVIL DEMS? The Dems, it was the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/4 "2017-07-30T19:24:03Z")
> [@pjacks](#): > > It’s funny how these Republican politicians grow a conscience after they confront their own mortality. John McCain’s on death’s door, so suddenly he cares about bipartisanship & taking Americans’ healthcare away. My former senator, Mark Kirk, had a stroke & seemed to transform overnight into a moderate republican who favored same-sex marriage & gun control. Do Murkowski & Collins have some health issues that aren’t publicly disclosed, I wonder. 😛 They have something better, for now, anyway: fear of their voters. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/5 "2017-07-30T19:42:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > They have something better, for now, anyway: fear of their voters. But is fear of the voters stronger than the fear of death? I say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/6 "2017-07-30T19:59:32Z")
> [@pjacks](#): > > It’s funny how these Republican politicians grow a conscience after they confront their own mortality. John McCain’s on death’s door, so suddenly he cares about bipartisanship & taking Americans’ healthcare away. It’s not a sudden change with McCain; his main legislative accomplishment in his career was the [Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipartisan_Campaign_Reform_Act), often called McCain-Feingold after him and Democratic Senator Russ Feingold (although the wiki article notes that the bill that was actually passed was based on the House version, similarly sponsored by a Democratic-Republican pair, Shays-Meehan). Given that background, I believe him when he is arguing the need for greater bipartisan legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/7 "2017-07-30T23:15:40Z")
So you’re saying that liberals are simply better human beings than conservatives? And the sun rises in the east and the sky is blue? The problem with McCain is that he is a maverick as long as it doesn’t inconvenience him politically. Remember when Jon Stewart slurped all over him until after 2009 when the Tea Party’s takeover made his seat unsafe and then Stewart had to disavow all knowledge of his previous adulation? That was as much the real McCain as the so-called maverick. If he has no plans to run for office again, you may see him inching a toe across the line of decency on the rare occasion. But nothing more. He’s not going to switch parties at this late date. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/8 "2017-07-30T23:23:24Z")
McCain is no Democrat in wolf’s clothing. He’s a Republican, through and through. But he’s a Republican in the older, mid-1900s meaning of that word. He is a friend of business, he’s generally conservative about government’s involvement in social issues, and he is willing to GOVERN, which means actually working with people from the other party when needed. He didn’t come to his determination about this process just because he’s facing brain cancer. I doubt that had much to do with anything other than forcing his hand on the timing issue. Amazingly, you can be conservative and not be evil. I wish more of the “liberal” population of this Board would accept that fact, instead of acting like everyone who disagrees with them must be the Devil. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/9 "2017-07-30T23:32:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Exapno** : > > So you’re saying that liberals are simply better human beings than conservatives? No, he’s saying that liberals are better at the art of persuasion. In this case, that ability has been used for good, but it can be and has been used for evil, as well. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/10 "2017-07-31T00:30:33Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > … > Amazingly, you can be conservative and not be evil. I wish more of the “liberal” population of this Board would accept that fact, instead of acting like everyone who disagrees with them must be the Devil. Today’s Republicans are not like the Republicans of the past. We’ve covered this topic many times on the SDMB. The Republicans of the past were not saints, but they were politicians (not a dirty word), meaning that they knew how to cooperate and make deals across the aisle for the good of the country. The Tea Party/Freedom Caucus put a stop to that. And Mitch The Devil McConnell swore to block every good thing that Muslim-Kenyan-Imposter tried to do for the USA. (In spite of that Obama got a LOT done.) Today’s Republican leadership (I use the term loosely) is obstructionist, hateful, cruel, stupid, and incapable of doing any good. We saw that over the last week. The country needs more of the moderate Republicans stand up and defy the big Orange Cheeto and reclaim the party. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/11 "2017-07-31T01:05:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, he’s saying that liberals are better at the art of persuasion. In this case, that ability has been used for good, but it can be and has been used for evil, as well. No, I’m not saying that, **Chronos**. (Being Canadian, I don’t automatically view everything from a liberal/conservative dichotomy.) I simply am struck by the different types of political pressure being used in this case. One is used by the current occupant of the White House (who I personally have trouble as dignifying with any label other than anarchist narcissist), and the other is used by the current Senate minority leader. It’s pretty clear which is the more effective way to try to influence powerful figures like US Senators. I wish the minority leader’s approach were more in evidence generally, from both parties, as I think it would be more effective, both in keeping the Senate working more efficiently, and encouraging the give and take that the Senate traditionally has used to get work done. (I also note that the article, and some of the Dems quoted in it, implicitly criticise Reid for not having the light touch that Schumer is showing. ) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/12 "2017-07-31T01:12:53Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Amazingly, you can be conservative and not be evil. I wish more of the “liberal” population of this Board would accept that fact, instead of acting like everyone who disagrees with them must be the Devil. Evil is an antiquated term. I’d go with parochial, willfully ignorant, closed-minded, unethical, unscrupulous, petty, authoritarian, selfish, and backward-facing. True, there is the occasional (very rare) exception, but that’s what you get with Republicans nowadays. Conservatives get painted with the same brush because they’re overwhelmingly Republican too. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/13 "2017-07-31T02:42:54Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Amazingly, you can be conservative and not be evil. I wish more of the “liberal” population of this Board would accept that fact, instead of acting like everyone who disagrees with them must be the Devil. You can be, of course. I just wish it hasn’t been years since I’ve seen any actual evidence of this, especially from the loudest conservative voices. > [@Chronos](#): > > No, he’s saying that liberals are better at the art of persuasion. In this case, that ability has been used for good, but it can be and has been used for evil, as well. No, I don’t think liberals are better at persuasion. I think they suck at it compared to conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/14 "2017-07-31T03:41:22Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > (Being Canadian, I don’t automatically view everything from a liberal/conservative dichotomy.) What else, then? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/15 "2017-07-31T11:38:56Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Today’s Republicans are not like the Republicans of the past. We’ve covered this topic many times on the SDMB. The Republicans of the past were not saints, but they were politicians (not a dirty word), meaning that they knew how to cooperate and make deals across the aisle for the good of the country. When I was a boy, Republicans were made of hardwood and steel, right here in America, and you could buy five of them for a quarter. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/16 "2017-07-31T12:04:43Z")
See Paul Krugman’s column in the NYT today: [Who Ate Republicans’ Brains?](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/opinion/republicans-trumpcare-obamacare-lies.html?ref=opinion) > [@](#): > > A key moment came in the 1970s, when Irving Kristol, the godfather of neoconservatism, embraced supply-side economics — the claim, refuted by all available evidence and experience, that tax cuts pay for themselves by boosting economic growth. Writing years later, he actually boasted about valuing political expediency over intellectual integrity: “I was not certain of its economic merits but quickly saw its political possibilities.” > … > The problem is that once you accept the principle that it’s O.K. to lie if it helps you win elections, it gets ever harder to limit the extent of the lying — or even to remember what it’s like to seek the truth. > … > Democrats aren’t above cutting a few intellectual corners in pursuit of electoral advantage. But the Obama administration was, when all is said and done, remarkably clearheaded and honest about its policies. In particular, it was always clear what the A.C.A. was supposed to do and how it was supposed to do it — and it has, for the most part, worked as advertised. Basically, the Republicans’ policy is tell whatever lies they think will get them elected, and hope that hard reality doesn’t come back to bite them. Not really a ‘conservative’ attitude at all. Now that they are in power they’re like the proverbial dog that chases a car with lots of loud barking, and when he catches it doesn’t know what to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/17 "2017-07-31T15:28:39Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Today’s Republicans are not like the Republicans of the past. We’ve covered this topic many times on the SDMB. **Snerk**. That’s a bit like the coverage of circumcision on mohels\_r\_us.com. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/18 "2017-07-31T15:45:49Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Amazingly, you can be conservative and not be evil. I wish more of the “liberal” population of this Board would accept that fact, instead of acting like everyone who disagrees with them must be the Devil. I consider myself to be very liberal. I agree 100% that you can be conservative and not be evil. But if you support Trump, if you say that you think he’s an awful person but you have to support him to get your policies enacted, if you make excuses for him, if you close your eyes to some of the truly frightening things coming out of the White House now – then you **are** evil. That’s my line in the sand. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/19 "2017-07-31T16:09:01Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Amazingly, you can be conservative and not be evil. Of course, but the remaining principled conservatives, to the extent they can be identified at all, have succumbed to the hyenas. There were 49 Republican Senators willing to vote to take health care away from tens of millions of their fellow Americans for \*no \*articulated reason other than partisan spite. Is it unfair to label that as evil? > [@](#): > > I wish more of the “liberal” population of this Board would accept that fact, instead of acting like everyone who disagrees with them must be the Devil. If you’re truly concerned about strawmanning and demonization and evil, you might start by sweeping your \*own \*doorstep, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441/20 "2017-07-31T18:31:26Z")
Right. It’s hilarious to see yahoos like the National Review and Ross Douthat and David Brooks of the Times op-ed page suddenly excoriate Trump after spending years being part of the asshole brigade attacking Obama’s every move and carefully never saying a word about the lunatic half of their coalition. You reap what you sowed, and conservatives sowed a bumper crop. Nothing about Trump is a sudden surprise. He’s everything we’ve been shouting about for decades, a Frankenstein monster with the conservatives image all over him. Asking us to consider conservatives as decent human beings is a few decades too late. Where were you with Joe McCarthy and Nixon and Wallace and Gingrich and Reagan and Bush and Limbaugh and Beck and O’Reilly and Levin and Savage and Coulter and Breitbart and Murdoch and Drudge and Redstate and Free Republic were spewing their hate? Hate is all you got. We’re calling you on it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare-debacle-highlights-two-types-of-political-persuasion/792441.md?page=2)