# Trumpcare **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 7, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625 "2017-03-07T15:57:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/21 "2017-03-07T18:45:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why do I care? Because members of Congress seem to still be required to purchase insurance through the exchanges. I’m wondering how much of an outcry there will be if THEIR healthcare gets screwed up because of this repeal and replace disaster. That’s simple to fix. They remove that requirement. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/22 "2017-03-07T18:49:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I haven’t seen it spelled out anywhere but I assume that first leg is still present? Insurance companies can’t deny coverage for preexisting conditions? > > Doesn’t that just mean that nobody will buy insurance unless they absolutely need it and happily pay the 30% premium when they get sick? That’s what I can’t understand, either. Why would anyone buy insurance in that case unless they knew for sure it was going to make financial sense? A family’s premiums might be $1000/mo, but they likely don’t use that much service every month. If they instead had to pay cash, they likely would spend less than $1000/mo in most cases. So it makes sense for them to do without insurance until they need it and then sign up when they have a big expense. Then they pay $1300/mo with the penalty until treatment is complete and then drop insurance when they are better. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/23 "2017-03-07T18:55:26Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > That’s what I can’t understand, either. Why would anyone buy insurance in that case unless they knew for sure it was going to make financial sense? > > A family’s premiums might be $1000/mo, but they likely don’t use that much service every month. If they instead had to pay cash, they likely would spend less than $1000/mo in most cases. So it makes sense for them to do without insurance until they need it and then sign up when they have a big expense. Then they pay $1300/mo with the penalty until treatment is complete and then drop insurance when they are better. Suppose while they’re without insurance, they get into a horrific car accident? Could they regain their coverage from the hospital bed if they can’t work to pay the premiums? Seems like a rather foolish gamble to me. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/24 "2017-03-07T18:58:55Z")
I don’t understand. 1. Before Obamacare individual health insurance was based on medical underwriting (resulting in pre-existing conditions not being insured…) 2. With Obamacare this was dropped so pr-existing conditions were covered and replaced with mandates, although existing plans were grandfathered in–grandfathering shortly to expire. Health insurance prices have been exploding and insurance companies have been rapidly withdrawing from the Obamacare market. 3. No mandate with Trumpcare. So why wouldn’t this simply increase the exodus from the market resulting in no individual health insurance being sold to anyone–except maybe at vastly higher rates than the already exorbitant current ones? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Suppose while they’re without insurance, they get into a horrific car accident? Could they regain their coverage from the hospital bed if they can’t work to pay the premiums? Seems like a rather foolish gamble to me. Well for this situation there is an obvious alternative, you simply declare bankruptcy. This works OK if you don’t have any assets that they could claim and don’t worry about credit ratings. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/25 "2017-03-07T19:01:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Suppose while they’re without insurance, they get into a horrific car accident? Could they regain their coverage from the hospital bed if they can’t work to pay the premiums? Seems like a rather foolish gamble to me. True, but then they sign up for insurance the next day and just have the first day’s worth of expenses to cover from their pocket. With no pesky pre-existing condition clause, the family can get coverage for the accident after the accident. The lengthly and expensive recovery in the hospital and physical therapy would thereafter only cost $1300/month. The savvy family would put the $1000/mo they would have spent on premiums into an HSA or savings account. Then when they do have a sudden expense, they can pay the first day or so worth of charges before their new insurance kicks in. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/26 "2017-03-07T19:01:57Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > That’s simple to fix. They remove that requirement. Oh yes, of course. I just can’t wait to see the R’s (a) propose exempting members of Congress from that requirement and (b) explaining why they need to do that after saying how necessary it was for Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/27 "2017-03-07T19:10:08Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > I don’t understand. > > 1. Before Obamacare individual health insurance was based on medical underwriting (resulting in pre-existing conditions not being insured…) > 2. With Obamacare this was dropped so pr-existing conditions were covered and replaced with mandates, although existing plans were grandfathered in–grandfathering shortly to expire. **Health insurance prices have been exploding and insurance companies have been rapidly withdrawing from the Obamacare market.** > 3. No mandate with Trumpcare. So why wouldn’t this simply increase the exodus from the market resulting in no individual health insurance being sold to anyone–except maybe at vastly higher rates than the already exorbitant current ones? > > Well for this situation there is an obvious alternative, you simply declare bankruptcy. This works OK if you don’t have any assets that they could claim and don’t worry about credit ratings. [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/feb/28/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-about-soaring-ob/) > [@](#): > > The agency takes a look at the average cost in each county for the second-lowest-cost silver level plan for a 27-year-old. That allows a comparison of rates between years and different parts of the country. > > In its Oct. 24, 2016, brief, HHS showed that premiums rose an average of 25 percent across the 39 states that use the [HealthCare.gov](http://HealthCare.gov) marketplace. > > As an average, that means some places saw higher increases than others. Oklahoma saw a 69 percent hike, for example, while Arkansas premiums only went up 2 percent. > > For the record, Arizona is the only state where premiums went up by triple digits. And in Indiana, premiums actually decreased in 2017. (It was the only state where that happened.) > > The sudden jump is due in part because portions of the law designed to keep costs artificially low have ended or didn’t work as originally intended. > > Reinsurance kept premiums for high-cost policyholders low by transferring money to their plans. A program called risk corridors was designed to share money from profitable insurers with companies that lost money, but was targeted by Republicans. > > Both programs ended as planned for 2017, so many premiums went up considerably to more closely match what it actually costs insurers to offer policies on the exchange. An Urban Institute report said that underpricing was the norm in the early years of the health care law, so the jump this year was a short-term correction. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/28 "2017-03-07T19:56:06Z")
All the focus on the prices of health insurance premiums ignores a huge part of the equation. The cost of treatment is way to high even if you have insurance. But providers have to charge too much because lots of people can’t pay. This new “plan” only exacerbates the problem. I was expecting a stupid plan that relied on handwaving, unicorn farts and a broken calculator. What we actually get is absolute insanity. It’s a handout to the rich while the middle class get it worse than before ACA, the poor might as well be harvested for parts, AND the insurance companies get screwed too. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/29 "2017-03-07T20:21:48Z")
Trump and care. Today’s contradiction of terms. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/30 "2017-03-07T20:22:54Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Perfect. +1. > > An internal Republican memo leaked last week revealed the main points of the new WealthCare plan, broken down as to how it will affect the Rich, the Middle Class, the Poor – and Everyone. > > For the Rich: > > [ul] > [li]They willl receive a 346 billion dollar tax cut.[/li] > [li]They will receive an HSA increase that they will be able to fully fund and will need the least.[/li] > [li]They will receive the benefit of new age-related subsidies which they do not need, depriving the neediest from the benefit of them.[/li] > [li]50% of all benefits from WealthCare will go to people who earn more than a million dollars per year.[/li] > [li]There is an included 10 billion dollar cut to pay for pharmaceuticals, health care devices, etc., which wealthy people can afford to pay for out of pocket but needier people cannot.[/li][/ul] > > The Middle Class: > [ul] > [li]Their individual subsidies will decline about an average of 57%.[/li] > [li]Subsidies are no longer tied to income, geography, etc., meaning wealthy people who don’t need subsidies will receive them, leaving less for the more needy.[/li] > [li]Major premium increases will occur to people 55-64 years old.[/li] > [li]There will be a tax increase on employee benefits – benefits will be reduced or eliminated by employers as a result – and millions will lose coverage.[/ul][/li] > For the Poor: > [ul] > [li]Medicaid expansion will be reduced by 277 billion. Most states will drop Medicaid expansion as a result.[/li] > [li]There will be a 370 billion cut to Medicaid over 10 years, expected to pay for the tax cut for billionaires.[/li] > [li]Medicaid will be block granted and capped forever to individual states.[/li][/ul] > > For everyone: > [ul] > [li]Sicker people can be charged more if they have a gap in coverage of more than 63 days.[/li] > [li]10 essential benefit protections will disappear, including mental health.[/li] > [li]Prevention and Public Health Fund, 10% of the CDC budget, will be eliminated.[/li][/ul] > > Yep. Sure looks like a fine replacement – for the wealthy. Is it OK if I c n p this for Facebook (with linked attribution, of course)? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/31 "2017-03-07T20:39:23Z")
Is it any surprise that insurance company CEO’s will make out like bandits? These greedy bastards just sat down with Trump like a week ago at which he promised them they’d like his new plan. From [CNN Money](http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/07/news/companies/republican-healthcare-reform-tax-break-insurance-execs/index.html?sr=twCNN030717republican-healthcare-reform-tax-break-insurance-execs0816PMVODtopPhoto&linkId=35219042): "Five major insurers paid their CEO’s $73 million in 2015, the most recent year for which pay has been reported. Only $2.5 million of that was deductible under Obamacare tax laws. But more than $70 million of that would be deductible under the proposed Republican legislation. … The deductions don’t affect the executives’ individual tax bill, just the company’s. But allowing bigger deductions on executive pay could give companies an incentive to hike that pay, since some of it would be made up for by the lower taxes. " Yeah? You think they might like a few more million dollars a year? How rich to these pricks need to be? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/32 "2017-03-07T21:23:07Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Yeah? You think they might like a few more million dollars a year? How rich to these pricks need to be? Richer. There is never enough wealth for these people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/33 "2017-03-07T21:23:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The most important discussions currently underway are the ones where the congressional Republicans are trying to figure out how to blame Obama for the upcoming shit-show in healthcare, and subsequent deaths. How many lives were saved by Obamacare? How many people died in 2008 that would have lived if Obamacare had been law then? Any? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/34 "2017-03-07T21:32:43Z")
Up to 45,000, Bricker. > **[New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/)** > > Nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance, according to a new study published online today by the American Journal of Public ... Want to argue the cite? Call Harvard, and the CDC, talk to the researchers, let us know what they said. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/35 "2017-03-07T21:51:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How many lives were saved by Obamacare? How many people died in 2008 that would have lived if Obamacare had been law then? > > Any? Why do you ask such a spring-loaded question? I swear, you lay more traps than a old-time fur hunter. It may be possible, maybe!..to create a methodology and conduct the survey. But any party likely to participate likely has some notion of what they want that survey to say, a fact which experience tells us will affect how the methods are decided upon. \* Très\* duh, _mais non_? I think you knew when you asked the question that there was no answer that couldn’t be nitpicked upon, like being nibbled to death by ducks. Any answer that you wouldn’t like that would be vulnerable. Heads, you win fer sure, tails is fifty-fifty. No fair, Counselor. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/36 "2017-03-07T21:54:43Z")
I will wait until Bricker talks to the PhD’s who actually researched his question and reports back to us any new findings. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/37 "2017-03-07T22:00:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How many lives were saved by Obamacare? How many people died in 2008 that would have lived if Obamacare had been law then? > > Any? So, I assume that you do think that I was lying then. I told you before that I was not going to accept your bet about Obamacare for the simple reason that thanks to a resistant to antibiotic infection I would had been a goner if I had not had Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/38 "2017-03-07T22:05:40Z")
He has a peer-reviewed study, published by Harvard and the CDC, answering this question. Regardless, I thought lawyers were trained not to ask Q’s to which the answer is unknown. The study was #2 on my Google search. Not difficult to find an answer. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/39 "2017-03-07T22:09:08Z")
In the few hours since this “bill” was released, the AARP is already on the warpath and has started producing commercials against it. > ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625/40 "2017-03-07T22:19:38Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > He has a peer-reviewed study, published by Harvard and the CDC, answering this question. > > Regardless, I thought lawyers were trained not to ask Q’s to which the answer is unknown. The study was #2 on my Google search. Not difficult to find an answer. It actually doesn’t answer the question. You’ve assumed that all deaths due to lack of insurance per the cite would have been prevented had the ACA been in place. That’s an assumption not supported by evidence. Evidence actually suggests that even given the ACA, [there would be a portion of people who do not get insurance](http://www.gallup.com/poll/190484/uninsured-rate-lowest-eight-year-trend.aspx). In any event, I’m not sure what this line of questioning is supposed to reveal. Measuring deaths or lives saved is only a portion of the impact of healthcare. The quality of life differences must also be a heavy weight on the scale of costs vs. benefits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumpcare/781625.md?page=3)