# Trump's argument about Affirmative Action **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972 "2011-04-28T00:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/21 "2011-04-28T14:16:38Z")
Trump is a shameful and shameless racist asshole, couching it all in the guise of “just asking a question”. There, I said it. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/22 "2011-04-28T14:17:26Z")
Well, now that Obama’s produced his long-form birth certificate and put the kibosh on the whole “birther” idiocy\*, Trump’s gotta find something else to get his toupee in a wad about. \*no, I’m not naive enough to think it’s really going to go away. You could show video footage of Obama’s mother giving birth under a Honolulu City Limits sign and the whackjobs would be screaming “that was some other baby!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/23 "2011-04-28T14:17:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > McCain went to a federal naval academy and there is no legacy system there. > > You have to complete a formal admissions process whether you’re the son of an Admiral or the son of a moonshiner. You have to be appointed by one of a list of special persons who can make appointments(U.S. Congressmen, U.S. Senator, Vice President each get something like 5 now… Grant so, but depending on the Senator/Congressman in your district, getting that appointment (which, having done the process, is far harder than the admissions process and entrance exams) can be effectively a matter of legacy, or not. (I ultimately decided to refuse my appointment due to the limited range of jobs available for the corrected-but-legally-blind, but I got it in the first place by major sucking up to the local Rep when he was handing me some kinda one-off academic award the school district had talked him into presenting). ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/24 "2011-04-28T15:37:06Z")
Another thing about law school (at least mine) is that all grading is anonymous. In our case, we got a number on a sticker in an envelope with our name on it prior to every exam. The number changed every semester. We’d put the sticker on the front of the blue books instead of our name, and the professor would grade each exam and send in the grades with the numbers. The administrative staff would then match number back up with name–they were the only ones other than the individual student who had access to both. So there was no way that favoritism could come into play when it came to grades–the professors had never had an opportunity to that point to see handwriting, since the grade comes down to the final exam. There’s no way that they could have known who wrote which exam. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/25 "2011-04-28T15:53:30Z")
Which is why every student on an Affirmative Action place was told to start each essay with, “As a black man/Inuit/woman/rich pillock riding Daddy’s coat tails, I feel…” ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/26 "2011-04-28T16:04:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You just have to be a very good writer. Sure, and to be a gold-medal sprinter, you _just_ have to run pretty fast. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/27 "2011-04-28T16:10:44Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > 1. \*\*Law school has actually gotten easier over time. Law schools used to admit bigger classes and flunk them out-that’s why Paper Chase, 1L etc all sound so crazy. Now they admit smaller classes and nobody flunks, but a lot of people graduate in the bottom half, which today might be just as bad the lower your school’s ranking (considering the legal market).I mean seriously, your comment is just strange and feels like you just want to talk about how Harvard undergrad grade inflates. Well, so do most American universities except the tech schools & UChicago but all the national law schools have strict curves it’s just that your chances of getting a job while being low-ranked rise as your school’s ranking goes up. \*\* Point of clarification. Some lower tiered law schools (such as mine) still do this. The system is/was designed to flunk out 10-15% of 1Ls. The curve is set at a 2.3 to 2.5 and anyone below a 2.0 is automatically disenrolled. Presumably most law schools have stopped doing this because its friggin asinine. /end rant ---
**Author:** ![fjs1fs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@fjs1fs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fjs1fs)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/28 "2011-04-28T16:58:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s treated as a given they belonged at the schools that they attended, though. They’re given a pass because they’re rich, white men. Minorities are not given that pass; they are assumed by default that they don’t belong. > > Except for the fact that it lets kids into schools who otherwise would have not gotten in (thereby displacing those who otherwise might have gotten in) and favors rich white people over those who aren’t lucky enough to be born into the home of an alumnus. How is this fair? > > It makes economic sense for the school, but just because something makes economic sense doesn’t make it fair. (There’s an economic rationale to justify AA, too. And your argument actually supports the existence of AA at these schools…what better way to balance out the legacy advantage than to have a system in place that favors those who are less likely to benefit from legacy due to race and SES.) > > Regardless, the rationale behind having legacy students is seperate from how we view legacy vs AA students. The naysayers that question Obama’s acumen on the grounds that he might have benefited from AA don’t extend that scrutiny to their own. Those that demand to know Sotomayor’s SAT scores to see if she’s fit enough to sit on the bench, don’t demand the same for her white colleagues who also might have had a point or two thrown their way. It’s racism, plain and simple. > > His grandfather _and_ father went to that school. I’m not so naive as to assume that this didn’t help him get in. The federal system is not immune from personal politics. I work for the feds; there ain’t not meritocracy in these here parts. It’s all about who you know. Your points are good, but I wish you’d stop saying “rich, white” and start saying “rich.” I’m sure Bill Cosby’s and P. Diddy’s kids/grandchildren, etc. will have a lot easier time getting into schools than I ever did, despite my “white advantage.” ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/29 "2011-04-28T17:19:31Z")
God, I wish we could have a media blackout on Trump. Then without an outlet for his ego thumping/attention whoring his head would swell to critical mass and eventually collapse under its own weight and form a black hole which would suck all evidence of his existence from the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/30 "2011-04-28T17:47:42Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > …it just seems ass-backwards to me. Say he’s right, and that Obama had poor grades at Occidental College, but got admitted to Columbia on a purely Affirmative-Action basis, and then got poor grades at Columbia, but got admitted to Harvard Law on the basis of Affirmative-Action, too. > > Obama edited the Law Review, an honor which does NOT get assigned to mediocre students. It is (AFAIK) an honor earned by someone with excellent grades at Harvard Law–so if Columbia and Harvard bent their usual admission standards (which they didn’t do, AFAIK) and this dumb, undeserving underachiever who wouldn’t have gotten admitted if he hadn’t been black emerged at the end of the process with stellar grades at Harvard Law, which Trump can’t dispute and can’t even claim to be ignorant of, then isn’t that a great justification for A.A.? Isn’t that more damaging to Trump’s citation of the “unfairness” of A.A. than Obama’s supposedly poor grades? No. A lot of people can turn it around later. If members of one ethnic group get extra chances because their race, while members of another have to be successful at every step of the way, then Trump is justified in pointing to it as unfair. The same would apply if a company promotes members of one ethnic group only when they actually demonstrate success at their present level, while promoting members of another group regardless. [Note that I have no independent knowledge of what Trump’s actual point was, and in general think Trump is a blowhard, but I’m responding to your OP specifically.] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/31 "2011-04-28T17:56:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m holding out for Trump/Palin myself; > > “You’re fired - I quit.” Now that is funny! ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/32 "2011-04-28T18:05:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > A lot of people can turn it around later. But then isn’t it unfair to _not_ to promote them? Look, I’ll grant you that the claim: “Early-Obama was a total dumdum and people only admitted him because he was black. But then Harvard-Obama became super-smart and wrote on to Law Review.” is probably the most plausible explanation of events. But doesn’t it seem unwise to punish Harvard-Obama, in the past, by holding back Early-Obama, since we know that Harvard-Obama will be super-smart and really deserve the Law Review EIC position and the only way to get Harvard-Obama and not McDonalds-Manager-Obama he was otherwise destined to become is to promote him at those earlier stages? Also, white people are the victims in all this. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/33 "2011-04-28T18:37:38Z")
Well, if “The Donald” has a plan in mind to eliminate favoritism from the world I’d like to hear it. Why is he being so coy about it? Pointing out one person that he thinks got an unfair advantage just qualifies him to be an angry teenager, not presidential material. So the claim is: Obama was born in poverty in Kenya, sneaked into the USA, falsified all of his records so that even Donald Trump can’t sort it out, tricked Harvard into letting him in and letting him edit the Review and then even tricked them into graduating him with honors. He has gone on to preform many other amazing stunts, like getting nominated then elected POTUS, for example. Damn, I want that guy running my country! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/34 "2011-04-28T18:37:46Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > But then isn’t it unfair to _not_ to promote them? Look, I’ll grant you that the claim: “Early-Obama was a total dumdum and people only admitted him because he was black. But then Harvard-Obama became super-smart and wrote on to Law Review.” is probably the most plausible explanation of events. But doesn’t it seem unwise to punish Harvard-Obama, in the past, by holding back Early-Obama, since we know that Harvard-Obama will be super-smart and really deserve the Law Review EIC position and the only way to get Harvard-Obama and not McDonalds-Manager-Obama he was otherwise destined to become is to promote him at those earlier stages? But the point is that at the time you didn’t know that Early-Obama would turn into Super-Smart Obama, and he got the extra chance because of his skin color. (Assuming, of course, that the alleged facts are actually true.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/35 "2011-04-28T18:48:50Z")
Anyone up for a bit of droll snark? > **[WordPress.com](https://wordpress.com/typo/?subdomain=dayriffer)** > > WordPress.com is the best place for your personal blog or business site. **Looks Like Trump’s Right: How the Hell Did This President Get Into Those Ivy League Schools?** Twilight zone style trick ending. Still, good beat, easy to dance to, a seventy five. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/36 "2011-04-28T19:29:58Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Harvard isn’t known for being especially difficult as far as universities go and they say that the hardest part is getting in. The idea that Harvard isn’t especially difficult smells like bullshit to me. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/37 "2011-04-28T21:33:15Z")
> [@fjs1fs](#): > > Your points are good, but I wish you’d stop saying “rich, white” and start saying “rich.” I’m sure Bill Cosby’s and P. Diddy’s kids/grandchildren, etc. will have a lot easier time getting into schools than I ever did, despite my “white advantage.” As far as I know, Bill Cosby and P. Diddy didn’t go to Ivy League schools. I’m talking about _legacy_ admissions. I don’t know why pointing me out “white” bothers you, when my point is that when you’re white, it doesn’t matter what your grades are in the eyes of the general public. The assumption is that when you’re white you belonged at the school you were admitted to, even if you end graduating at the bottom of your class. A minority like Obama, on the other hand, can graduate magna cum laude and still there will be aspersions cast on his qualifications. This is “white advantage” in broad daylight. It’s not even about being rich. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/38 "2011-04-28T21:42:50Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > The idea that Harvard isn’t especially difficult smells like bullshit to me. I know Stanford is like that. Unbelievable grade inflation. Maybe that’s changed, but it was certainly that way in the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/39 "2011-04-28T21:50:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Bush can be bring home C’s and D’s, but that’s perfectly yanky doodle dandy to the anti-AA crowd. Right. Bush did get turned down from the University of Texas Law School. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972/40 "2011-04-28T22:59:01Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Note that Harvard Law Review does explicitly [admit](http://www.harvardlawreview.org/hlr_477.php) some members on an affirmative-action basis, but presumably it does not announce which ones or even precisely how many. We had a huge ruckus over this when I was at law school. In the end we had a sort of three tier process for getting onto a journal - everyone who wanted on one of the journals took part in a write on competition at the end of their first year. There were 1/6 of the places reserved solely for performance in the write on part, 1/6 for performance solely on grades, and 2/3 for a blend of the two. Admittedly, those numbers intermeshed, because it likely that the top performers in the write-on competition and the top performers in the grades were the same people. Then at the end of the 2L year, the outgoing 3Ls on law review would vote on the junior members to fill the editorial slots for the next year. But everything was done blind. There were no Affirmative Action slots, and I am a little bit disappointed HLS has them. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > To follow this up, Harvard Law’s 1L class is on a C curve, meaning a certain percentage (5-10) _must_ fail any given class. I always knew there was a reason I didn’t want to go there. Well other than preferring death to living in the Boston area. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-argument-about-affirmative-action/579972.md?page=3)