# Trump's ban on transgender individuals in the military **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159 "2017-07-26T14:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/201 "2017-07-26T21:51:04Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I saw a Facebook post from Duckworth earlier, but can’t find it now. Here’s the gist: Please note, Duckworth lost her legs for this country. Trump hid like a little bitch, claiming he had a non-existent bone spur in his foot (but can’t even remember which foot). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/202 "2017-07-26T22:04:31Z")
I don’t even know anymore where to begin to look to find an answer to this question: Can the president legally ban transgenders, or anyone else for that matter, from serving and also have those currently serving separated? If so, I fully expect another type of Muslim ban PDQ. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/203 "2017-07-26T22:13:11Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I don’t even know anymore where to begin to look to find an answer to this question: Can the president legally ban transgenders, or anyone else for that matter, from serving and also have those currently serving separated? If so, I fully expect another type of Muslim ban PDQ. AFAIK, both Obama and Clinton unilaterally decided their respective change of policy on gender/sexuality inclusion. It would be odd if Trump couldn’t similarly reverse either. But you expectation of a religious based ban does not seem remotely legal, constitutionally. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/204 "2017-07-26T22:15:48Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > My main concern with this is the cost/benefit issue. > > I work in the office within DoD that also has been working on the policy, training and other HR issues associated with this. This is the same office that worked the women in the military and gays in the military issue. And the cost/benefit issue is the one that is discussed time and time again on this. > > Women in the military, Women make up 51 percent of the US. Not targeting 51 percent no longer made sense and the cost/benefit was there. Off the military went. > > Gays in the military. Gays make up 4% of the US. Not a huge amount of people. The cost/benefit of having gays in the military isn’t really there. The Service Chiefs are concerned. The amount of training, annual training, policies, standards and discipline associated with this will be as significant as with women, but the country increasing wanted it will be done so off we went. > > Transgender in the military. Transgenders in the US make up 0.3% of the population. A very small portion of the nation. Additionally, studies show that they have a lower propensity than the population at larger to join the military. Within DoD and with the Service Chiefs, the cost/benefit of having transgender isn’t really there. The amount of training, policies, standards etc. associated with this is on par with women in the military and gays, for a tiny fraction of the population base. > > The amount of time that has been spent on this issue is viewed by many of the people that have to implement it to be disproportional to any readiness that will be gained. And readiness is the name of the game for the military. Gay and trans people are already serving and always have. The only question is do we want to welcome them and their skills or shut them out and make them live lies if they want to serve. What’s the benefit of trying to shut them out? Based on the studies linked so far, I don’t buy that there’s actually any significant costs greater than the benefits to allowing them to serve openly. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/205 "2017-07-26T22:21:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Was I? Please link to the post on page one where I defended the military practice of kicking good troops out for stupid reasons. In fact, you can use this whole thread to try to show where I am defending the military practice of kicking good troops out for stupid reasons. If you can’t, not only are you a moron, but you are a liar too. I wasn’t born yesterday. I know how this game works. I post the link to your post and everyone can read your words and the plain meaning of them. But you’re going to say that the plain reading is wrong and that everyone is an idiot for thinking that you meant what you wrote. When someone says, “But we have been doing X for a long time!” the only rational way to read it is as a defense of X. That is what you wrote about this situation, but apparently you are going to pretend that the words don’t mean what everyone thinks they do. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/206 "2017-07-26T22:33:26Z")
Any stats on other countries military LGBT issues? I’m just not gonna do the Googling. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/207 "2017-07-26T22:39:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > “I’m not a bigot, I just voted for a bigot to be President.” > “I’m not a bigot, I just support bigotted policies and those who push them” > “I’m not a bigot.” _To paraphrase from another Pit thread:_ “I’m not a sociopath/psychopath, I just support one and voted for one.” Trump is a psychopath. He’s a psychopathic liar. He is a megalomaniac. He is fixated on only those things that, in his twisted mind, make him look good. Damn the Truth; full speed ahead. Ahead, though, lies the ruination of the country. And you idiots who voted for him…you also are shit. You voted for him knowing full well how atrocious he is. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/208 "2017-07-26T22:45:09Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Please note, Duckworth lost her legs for this country. Trump hid like a little bitch, claiming he had a non-existent bone spur in his foot (but can’t even remember which foot). Maybe Trump could figure it out by taste. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/209 "2017-07-26T22:48:57Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > To take a meta view of the politics around this issue (leaving aside the merits): I’d wager there is going to be a lot of talk about the issues surrounding Chelsea Manning. (Obama’s pardon, etc.) Funny you mention Chelsea Manning, because I found myself agreeing with her tweet on this matter. :eek:😉 [QUOTE=Chelsea Manning] so, biggest baddest most $$ military on earth cries about a few trans people 😩 but funds the F-35? [/QUOTE] The cost of having surgeons, etc. – who the Defense Department already employs – performing gender reassignments for transgendered members of the Armed Forces wouldn’t even be the interest on the $400 billion [(cite)](http://time.com/money/4310099/f-35-budget-pay-free-college-student-loans/) [(another cite)](https://mic.com/articles/93327/the-military-has-wasted-enough-money-on-this-jet-to-buy-every-homeless-american-a-mansion#.CdBWEpLTQ) wasted on the F-35 project. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/210 "2017-07-26T22:50:21Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Any stats on other countries military LGBT issues? I’m just not gonna do the Googling. The frequently referenced RAND study looked at 18 different countries but focused on 4: > [@](#): > > There are 18 countries that allow transgender personnel to serve openly in their militaries: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom (Polchar et al., 2014). Our analysis focused on the policies of the four countries—Australia, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom—with the most well-developed and publicly available policies on transgender military personnel. Several common themes emerged from our analysis of their experiences: > […] > • In no case was there any evidence of an effect on the operational effectiveness, operational readiness, or cohesion of the force ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/211 "2017-07-26T22:52:09Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Gays in the military. Gays make up 4% of the US. Not a huge amount of people. The cost/benefit of having gays in the military isn’t really there. The Service Chiefs are concerned. The amount of training, annual training, policies, standards and discipline associated with this will be as significant as with women, but the country increasing wanted it will be done so off we went. Who, exactly, is the service chief questioning this? Because this is sharply at odds with numerous public comments of not just the current, but also recent service chiefs. Even General Amos, who publicly opposed the change in policy, said a year later something to the effect of the matter being dead and nobody ever raises it. I can find the quote if you want. So are all these chiefs lying to the public that gays in the military is some kind of problem that they are concerned about? Because that’s the only way I can think of how their comments and your comment can be squared. And who exactly is holding back on their opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/212 "2017-07-26T22:52:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But you expectation of a religious based ban does not seem remotely legal, constitutionally. That’s not stopping the piece of crap from pushing his current Muslim ban. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/213 "2017-07-26T22:59:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s not stopping the piece of crap from pushing his current Muslim ban. You can push almost whatever you want in this country. But you know perfectly well he’s not going to get a literal Muslim ban even if he gets allowed to ban certain Muslim dominate country immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/214 "2017-07-26T23:00:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > DoD is under the Executive Dept., not Congress. The courts could get involved if someone was interested in filing for a restraining order. (Good luck with that with the military.) > > Or Congress could threaten funding after the fact…even more luck necessary. Doh…I’ve got departments on the brain. I meant Executive branch, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/215 "2017-07-26T23:17:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I don’t even know anymore where to begin to look to find an answer to this question: Can the president legally ban transgenders, or anyone else for that matter, from serving and also have those currently serving separated? If so, I fully expect another type of Muslim ban PDQ. I doubt he any interest in trying to ban transgenders from serving, probably not enough enough to dash off an ill-considered executive order. It’s early yet, but I take this as both: A) A further effort at distraction from ongoing Russian scandals. B) A signal to congressional Republicans that if they want to make transgenderism a wedge issue in 2018, they’ll get support from the White House, or at least no opposition. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/216 "2017-07-26T23:25:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I doubt he any interest in trying to ban transgenders from serving, probably not enough enough to dash off an ill-considered executive order. It’s early yet, but I take this as both: > > A) A further effort at distraction from ongoing Russian scandals. > B) A signal to congressional Republicans that if they want to make transgenderism a wedge issue in 2018, they’ll get support from the White House, or at least no opposition. There is a Poitico piece linked to in the GD thread that this was in order to get certain GOP Congresscritters on board with voting for a military spending bill-- they wanted to take out funding for Transgender medical costs. I think that makes the most sense. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/217 "2017-07-26T23:30:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is a Poitico piece linked to in the GD thread that this was in order to get certain GOP Congresscritters on board with voting for a military spending bill-- they wanted to take out funding for Transgender medical costs. I think that makes the most sense. All of Trump’s damn golf trips cost more for chrissake. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/218 "2017-07-26T23:33:08Z")
He’s a fucking piece of shit. Per usual. I am particularly pissed off about this one, though. It’s so petty and vindictive. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/219 "2017-07-26T23:42:25Z")
I know a great way to save the Army some money… Stop forcing them to rent space in Drumpf’s fucking hotel. > **[US military office reportedly spends $130K in monthly rent at Trump Tower](https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2017/07/19/us-military-office-reportedly-spends-130k-in-monthly-rent-at-trump-tower/)** > > The White House Military Office, separate from the U.S. Secret Service, is occupying space at Trump Tower. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — A U.S. military office that supports the White House is reportedly spending **$130,000 per month to rent space in Trump Tower** , where President Donald Trump has yet to spend a night since he became the commander in chief, according to General Services Administration lease documents obtained by The Wall Street Journal. > > The White House Military Office, separate from the U.S. Secret Service, is occupying the space and provides services that the president must have access to by law. This includes medical, food, transportation and communication services, and the office is responsible for holding onto the so-called nuclear football in case the president needs to authorize a nuclear attack. > > The government signed a **$2.39 million lease** to rent this 3,475-square-foot space near Trump’s penthouse for a total of **18 months**. [http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/328942-secret-service-has-spent-more-than-35000-on-golf-cart-rentals](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/328942-secret-service-has-spent-more-than-35000-on-golf-cart-rentals) > [@](#): > > The Secret Service has spent more than **$35,000 on golf cart rentals** at President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort since his inauguration, CBS News reported Friday, as Trump begins another weekend in Florida. > > CBS News reported that it had reviewed purchase orders showing $35,185 in costs for renting golf carts during Trump’s frequent visits to Palm Beach, Fla. > > The president has played several rounds of golf at Trump-branded clubs, including in Florida and Virginia. > > Trump has come under fire for his **frequent** trips, which current estimates show have cost **more than $20 million** — nearly the amount President Obama spent on travel in his first two years combined. Obama spent approximately $97 million on travel, averaging $12.12 million per year in office. **Give that fat fuck the bill and let HIM pay for this shit.** ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159/220 "2017-07-27T00:23:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > AFAIK, both Obama and Clinton unilaterally decided their respective change of policy on gender/sexuality inclusion. It would be odd if Trump couldn’t similarly reverse either. Potentially incorrect for two reasons: (1) There are many levels of executive procedure. A tweet is not the same as a duly promulgated regulation, and overriding an existing policy is not always the same as instituting a new one; (2) Discrimination can be challenged as an equal protection or gender discrimination statutory violation, while inclusion cannot be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ban-on-transgender-individuals-in-the-military/792159.md?page=12)