# Trump's indictment--does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [June 9, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251 "2023-06-09T16:21:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/281 "2023-06-14T13:56:15Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > Taking into consideration the proportion of the US population who blindly worship trump, is there truly any hope in hell of getting a jury that will find him guilty? Repurposing an old joke: How can you tell that someone is a Trump Supporter? You don’t have to, _they’ll_ tell _you_. Any MAGAt willing to just ignore the facts to acquit Trump is also likely to be unable to hide the fact that they’re an incredibly biased Trump Supporter. I’d give good odds that several potential jurors will show up in court with the full regalia: MAGA hats, “Fuck your feelings” T-shirt, and 'Murrican flags over both shoulders. The very mental defect that makes them a MAGAt will make it very difficult for them to pretend otherwise. So weeding them out won’t be that difficult. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/282 "2023-06-14T14:03:48Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@velomont](#): > > > > Taking into consideration the proportion of the US population who blindly worship trump, is there truly any hope in hell of getting a jury that will find him guilty? > > Of course! More optimistically, there is very little chance that even if you get a jury populated by MAGAnuts, there is bound to be one juror, if not 11 of them, who won’t go along. This will give you a hung jury, and the government can re-try the case. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/283 "2023-06-14T15:03:54Z")
Check out this chyron from Fox: “Wannabe dictator speaks at the White House after having his political rival arrested” > **[Fox News Chyron Calls Biden a ‘Wannabe Dictator’](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/business/media/fox-news-biden-dictator-trump.html)** > > The onscreen text appeared Tuesday beneath split-screen footage of President Biden and former President Donald J. Trump, who had been charged with federal crimes hours earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/284 "2023-06-14T15:09:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > “Wannabe dictator speaks at the White House after having his political rival arrested” I don’t recognize my country anymore. WTF do they think they’re doing? (Rhetorical question). This kind of stuff contributes to the craziness like January 6th. Have they no shame? (rhetorical question). ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/285 "2023-06-14T15:13:40Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t recognize my country anymore. WTF do they think they’re doing? (Rhetorical question). This kind of stuff contributes to the craziness like January 6th. Have they no shame? (rhetorical question). And how many generations post-trump will it take for things to get back to normal (eg rule of law, conventions of civility etc) again, if it’s even possible? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/286 "2023-06-14T15:20:08Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > And how many generations post-trump will it take for things to get back to normal (eg rule of law, conventions of civility etc) again, if it’s even possible? How long did it take Germany to recover from Naziism? Such things can drag on for decades, or change overnight. Hard to guess which way it will go. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/287 "2023-06-14T15:22:33Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > How long did it take Germany to recover from Naziism? You mean how long did Nazism _seem_ to die down before it began to rear its ugly head again? Answer: about 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/288 "2023-06-14T15:32:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > But if we can prove that Trump is selling nuclear/military/espionage secrets to another country, That won’t come up in the trial, as that’s not one of the seven different crimes he’s being charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/289 "2023-06-14T15:45:50Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > _…seven different crimes…_ Kinda depressing, really. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/290 "2023-06-14T16:37:19Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > As I understand it, what makes her controversial was appointing a special master to review the documents that were taken by the FBI, right? This is not the whole story. She really did go out of her way to delay. Here’s just one example. In her September 5, 2022 order appointing the special master she says that being deprived of “potentially significant personal documents” causes harm. > In addition to being deprived of potentially significant personal documents, which alone creates a real harm, Plaintiff faces an unquantifiable potential harm by way of improper disclosure of sensitive information to the public. However, in a hearing on September 1, 2022, DOJ offered to return those documents. > MR. HAWK: The privilege review team would have provided Bates stamped copies of the 64 sets of documents to Plaintiff’s counsel. We would like to seek permission from Your Honor to be able to provide those now, not at this exact moment but to move forward to providing those so counsel has the opportunity to review them and understand and have the time to review and do their own analysis of those documents to come to their own conclusions. And if the filter process without a special master were allowed to proceed, we would engage with counsel and have conversations, determine if we can reach agreements; to the extent we couldn’t reach agreements, we would bring those before the Court, whether Your Honor or Judge Reinhart. But simply now, I’m seeking permission just to provide those documents to Plaintiff’s counsel. > > THE COURT: All right. I’m going to reserve ruling on that request. I prefer to consider it holistically in the assessment of whether a special master is indeed appropriate for those privileged reviews. So she first did not allow DOJ to return personal documents to Trump. Then four days later she used the harm caused by being deprived of these documents (which she created) as a reason to exercise jurisdiction and appoint a special master to review the documents. This resulted in in Trump being deprived of the documents for months. Literally issuing orders that exacerbated the harm she claimed Trump was suffering. Harm she caused and claimed as a reason for issuing those orders. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/291 "2023-06-14T16:45:06Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Not much fun if the other judges ignore you on the playground and won’t sit with you in the cafeteria. I’m sure this will occasionally bring a tear to her eye while she vacationing on Harlan Crow’s yacht. Seriously though tanking the case in favor of Trump is more likely to help her career than harm it. She can’t be fired, and the only way for her to get promoted is for some future Republican president, Trump or otherwise, to see her as a reliable vote. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/292 "2023-06-14T17:59:59Z")
You’re probably right… * * * * * * Then there’s this: > **[Judge in Trump Documents Case Has Scant Criminal Trial Experience](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/us/politics/aileen-cannon-judge-trump-documents.html?unlocked_article_code=I-a0mjRrFlWdru7ihEQHxKrVsgB4R2Yxkm_zlrBi0jTrfZXwFTpsUM6eqGW2lmoJe4XHmUKwyPwEEF49RD37k09kRN97PKWs3UOcsUTiyKuCRtNiws4tkvjL1HK7nLi3ZjggS6uAN2a22yfLtfi0XFZI-6InJqyUnotd3Dm3RqfCvuk8OFvX3VPJdauoQHf66iwr52zqJiXJwd7NNoUFty2ZumWDpoNoXn1hXWqJcuAo__61LwGdmZARwXR7Txb29MbontvHjnkJw70wlfNtu4f1lHJ8Ed9POjmnEIgpgEKJC6WGbw6YaOrkLAc6THhQ_3TBWbbBw6g5Jne_ZgyBynJUR-w5REtdkKGDzOSoqMjR&smid=url-share)** > > Judge Aileen M. Cannon, under scrutiny for past rulings favoring the former president, has presided over only a few criminal cases that went to trial. > Aileen M. Cannon, the Federal District Court judge assigned to preside over former President Donald J. Trump’s classified documents case, has scant experience running criminal trials, calling into question her readiness to handle what is likely to be an extraordinarily complex and high-profile courtroom clash. > > Judge Cannon, 42, has been on the bench since November 2020, when Mr. Trump gave her a lifetime appointment shortly after he lost re-election. She had not previously served as any kind of judge, and because about [98 percent of federal criminal cases are resolved with plea deals,](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/11/only-2-of-federal-criminal-defendants-go-to-trial-and-most-who-do-are-found-guilty/#:~:text=Only%202%25%20of%20federal%20criminal,My%20Account%20Contacted%20By%20Us%3F) she has had only a limited opportunity to learn how to preside over a trial. > > A Bloomberg Law database lists **224 criminal cases** that have been assigned to her, and a New York Times review of those cases identified **four that went to trial.** Each was a relatively routine matter, like a felon who was charged with illegally possessing a gun. In all, the four cases added up to 14 trial days. > … My bold. 14 trial days? Hell, I have more experience than that from watching every episode of Law & Order multiple times. Some rehashing in this article, but still interesting. More background on her experience/career than I’ve read up to now. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/293 "2023-06-14T18:03:36Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > 14 trial days? I hate to defend her, but she also has 7 years under her belt as a federal prosecutor. That would indicate a lot of time in the courtroom. It’s different that sitting on the bench, but it’s good experience. Still, it’s a big and complicated case for a relatively young and inexperienced judge. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/294 "2023-06-14T18:35:56Z")
Not to mention that she certainly has very experienced clerks. Who’s to say that this doesn’t end with a plea deal anyway? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/295 "2023-06-14T18:40:40Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Who’s to say that this doesn’t end with a plea deal anyway? I have a very difficult time imagining this particular defendant agreeing to any plea that involves an admission of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/296 "2023-06-14T18:42:52Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I have a very difficult time imagining this particular defendant agreeing to any plea that involves an admission of guilt. I have a very difficult time imagining this particular judge agreeing to any plea that involves an admission of guilt. I know that’s awful to say and I should give Cannon the benefit of the doubt… but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/297 "2023-06-14T18:43:14Z")
Alford plea? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/298 "2023-06-14T18:45:50Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I have a very difficult time imagining this particular defendant agreeing to any plea that involves an admission of guilt. I can picture it. Now now. Trump’s magical thinking prevents him from believing a yet-to-commence trial won’t end in his favor. But I can see a trial progressing in such a dire way for him that even Trump can be convinced by his counsel. “Donnie, you can see what’s going on. You’re likely going to prison unless we can broker a deal. Your call.” ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/299 "2023-06-14T18:49:33Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > “Donnie, you can see what’s going on. You’re likely going to prison unless we can broker a deal. Your call.” I imagine the conversation would go [more like this.](https://youtu.be/ZXj9AWih-qM?t=30) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/300 "2023-06-14T18:52:46Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > How long did it take Germany to recover from Naziism? Not a good comparison. Naziism was stomped out definitively both by external invaders and internal powers. Trumpism won’t be “stomped out” very aggressively at all. Democrats are pathetically weak. They’re still acting more or less like things are within the norms, reaching across the aisle, losing democracy in this country with maybe a mild ineffective protest here and there. They make Neville Chamberlain look like a hard-ass fighter. Our media is compromised, our institutions are hesitant to take action, and all the conservatives screaming about how everyone is biased against them has everyone actually giving them every fucking benefit of the doubt that they don’t deserve. There was the strongest possible rebuke of naziism then. There’s a tacit acceptance of naziism into our political norms now. Even if Trump is gone, the damage has been done and there’s no one seriously trying to undo it. History is going to look at the 2020s democratic party as one of the most pathetic attempts to resist tyranny the world has ever seen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251.md?page=16)