# Trump's indictment--does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [June 9, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251 "2023-06-09T16:21:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/121 "2023-06-10T22:19:48Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > OK, give me a scenario why each of these won’t happen. > > Apparently, she can stay on the case through voir dire and can direct a verdict. What’s Jack Smith’s next move? > > Likewise, Trump asks for a bench trial–and why wouldn’t he? 12 randos or one MAGA-crazy judge? Easy call–and she hits her gavel and says “Not Guilty.” Again, Smith’s next move? The fact she didn’t do something like that already. She showed she was willing to come down pro-Trump during the whole “special master” bs, but not to point of “screw what the law says I’m getting my guy off”. I mean if she was going to do something like this she could have simply thrown out all the documentary evidence instead of appointing a special master, and the case would have been dead in the water. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/122 "2023-06-10T23:12:21Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > She graduated from University of Michigan law school in the Top 10% of her class. Yeah - but there’s all kinds of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/123 "2023-06-10T23:57:28Z")
Exhibit A: Ben Carson. Brilliant brain surgeon, catastrophically dumb otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/124 "2023-06-11T00:04:33Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s hard to find comparable cases of someone going through the court system and not admitting guilt. David Petraeus and Sandy Berger both entered guilty pleas. Asia Janay Lavarello pleaded guilty a year or so after her arrest. Reality Winner finally pleaded guilty after a year of convoluted proceedings. (She was never read her Miranda rights, she claimed.) Very few people fight these charges. > > The closest one I found was that of former NSA agent Harold T. Martin III Genuine question, did any of them have the resources to fight the courts for an extended time or did they say ‘I need to get this over with’? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/125 "2023-06-11T00:20:31Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s hard to find comparable cases of someone going through the court system and not admitting guilt. David Petraeus and Sandy Berger both entered guilty pleas. Asia Janay Lavarello pleaded guilty a year or so after her arrest. Reality Winner . . . Fair enough. But if instead of looking at the charge, you looked at it from the standpoint of whether the defendant is an elected official, refusing a plea bargain would be more common: [Jurors in the Sunshine State have a history of siding with elected officials](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/10/trump-indictment-case-florida-00101378) > [@](#): > > “When you’re talking about elected officials in Florida, your jury pool is made up of the people who voted for those people,” said Mandell, whose firm recently represented one of the defendants connected to the now-closed DOJ probe of Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.). “We’re a red state and you’re getting red jurors. And they can’t see past red.” Juries are unpredictable, and there was an apparent Trump supporter on the E Jean Carroll jury. Trump could be convicted. But it is more rational for him to go to trial than was the case with some other defendants. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/126 "2023-06-11T00:23:02Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Genuine question, did any of them have the resources to fight the courts for an extended time or did they say ‘I need to get this over with’? David Patreus I’m sure would have, he was a fairly successful media personality at that point. Presumably it was the sentence he was being threatened with if he didn’t take the deal, then lost, that made him take the deal ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/127 "2023-06-11T00:28:27Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Juries are unpredictable, and there was an apparent Trump supporter on the E Jean Carroll jury. Trump could be convicted. But it is more rational for him to go to trial than was the case with some other defendants. Though the question to me is what offer is on the table. I’m sure there is one that will be offered at some point (if it’s not already) and presumably there is some pressure from GOP circles for it to be pretty generous. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/128 "2023-06-11T00:45:58Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I’m sure there is one that will be offered at some point (if it’s not already) and presumably there is some pressure from GOP circles for it to be pretty generous. If Smith can be pressured, that’s a big problem. What are they going to pressure him with? Trump already called him a “deranged lunatic.” Death threats? I fear they are nowadays normal and expected. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/129 "2023-06-11T00:46:08Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Genuine question, did any of them have the resources to fight the courts for an extended time or did they say ‘I need to get this over with’? Nobody has the resources of Trump. Both Petraeus and Berger were very high-placed figures, though, far better able to fight a case than ordinary staffers. They didn’t because they were obviously guilty. Very few people who are found with classified documents can make any defense. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > But if instead of looking at the charge, you looked at it from the standpoint of whether the defendant is an elected official, refusing a plea bargain would be more common: I looked only at cases involving classified documents, since that was the subject. I don’t know of any cases involving elected officials and classified documents. None of it matters. This case is unique. It will have the trappings of an ordinary procedure, but comparing it to previous cases is folly. He’s a former president running for president. He has 30% of the population really to die or kill for him. He has a number of news organizations and swarms of social media not merely condemning the prosecutors but sending them death threats. He has people ready to harm jurors if their identities become known. He will spend every moment leading up to the trial stirring up crowds to make the entire system of American justice, the American government, the American Presidency, and the American way of life that Superman defended seem warped, prejudicial, unfounded, debased, and unworthy. Real people and real peoples’ lives are at risk for every minute Trump’s tonsils remain working. We cannot pretend for a moment this is a case like any other. It isn’t. It’s a trial of America and of Democracy. The OP asked if it matters. Hell yes. And worse is to come. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/130 "2023-06-11T01:51:26Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > If Smith can be pressured, that’s a big problem. > > What are they going to pressure him with? Trump already called him a “deranged lunatic.” Death threats? I fear they are nowadays normal and expected Well that’s the thing, up to now it’s been (in theory)a matter of fact. But the offer is inherently a political matter, right? There is no objectively “right” offer (other than I assume some minimums set down in law?) it’s just a matter opinion based on the chances of getting a guilty verdict? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/131 "2023-06-11T02:37:54Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Exhibit A: Ben Carson. Brilliant brain surgeon, catastrophically dumb otherwise. Exhibit B: Ben Stein. Yale valedictorian, speechwriter for presidents and an overall impressive career yet thinks evolution is a fraud (among other awful and terrible notions). > Stein has denounced the [scientific theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory) of [evolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution), which he and other [intelligent design](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design) advocates call “[Darwinism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism#Other_uses)”, declaring it to be “a painful, bloody chapter in the history of ideologies”, “the most compelling argument yet for Imperialism”, and the inspiration for the [Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust).[[42]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein#cite_note-42)[[43]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein#cite_note-43) - [SOURCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein#Evolution) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/132 "2023-06-11T02:49:51Z")
Interesting coincidence from recent news. > **[Former MacDill airman gets 3 years in prison for keeping classified documents](https://www.tampabay.com/news/military/2023/06/01/former-macdill-airman-gets-3-years-prison-keeping-classified-documents/)** > > Robert Birchum, a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel, admitted he kept more than 300 classified documents in his Tampa home and among his personal belongings. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/133 "2023-06-11T02:55:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > He will spend every moment leading up to the trial stirring up crowds to make the entire system of American justice, the American government, the American Presidency, and the American way of life that Superman defended seem warped, prejudicial, unfounded, debased, and unworthy. It seems he already is trying: > ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/134 "2023-06-11T03:08:16Z")
Louisiana Congressman [Clay Higgins](https://www.nola.com/news/politics/clay-higgins-urges-war-over-trump-indictments-author-says/article_db78acde-0701-11ee-af01-73c2414fd4d7.html) is locked and loaded. He tweeted: > “President Trump said he has been summoned to appear at the Federal Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, at 3 PM. This is a perimeter probe from the oppressors. Hold. rPOTUS has this. Buckle up. 1/50K know your bridges. Rock steady calm. That is all.” > > Though Higgins did not respond to a request for clarification, author, journalist and professor Jeff Sharlet took his words as a call for war. Sharlet’s latest book, “The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War,” is an in-depth look at right-wing extremism. > > “Take this seriously,” [Sharlet wrote Friday](https://twitter.com/search?q=Jeff%20Sharlet&src=typeahead_click%20). “’Perimeter probe’: Higgins thinks indictment precedes bigger attack. ‘rPOTUS’: real POTUS, Trump. ‘Hold’: stand back & stand by. ‘Buckle up’: prepare for war. ‘1/50 k’: military scale maps (mostly publicly available that show nearby military installations). ‘Know your bridges’: militia speak for prepare to seize bridges.” > > Sharlet continued: “This isn’t a metaphor. This isn’t slow civil war. This is a congressman calling for the real thing.” ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/135 "2023-06-11T03:31:40Z")
> **[‘This Is the Final Battle’: Trump Casts His Campaign as an Existential Fight...](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/10/us/politics/trump-georgia-north-carolina.html?unlocked_article_code=WIJUoI-vRAsXRu6VOBDntWTGzj2USfrCN7JKQ9OmCYYg_iqw4Ko47T_3IKKA71Lrnj-j2k66zMGPusKSgjW0OZVqMQ8qgnGlVlzisTlO0O_ctaUYkW6gAotovxeETbjuRZ3YwHDc6Pnbe2_IgqeYzIqMi9kmhmo2qFw6av2iWWraoipW8C7bdy2uDfdyfiu5zENfFl83a9apkmCFBDAuG0pvD5D7exn8h4tL-EJWLi42td1hsFqHkf43D9FU_M5Yxp5igPtqxuMVpvmcTs9cuFS5_fSp3lBLDYDptohrMAysS-1BNJPSal58qogI9fZt3vnmACKOBtqHDoyaXjikN7M7kMVhxrBy4BM&smid=url-share)** > > Donald J. Trump delivered his first post-indictment public remarks on Saturday at the state G.O.P. conventions in Georgia and North Carolina, as his federal indictment dominates the political landscape. > … > The Columbus convention crowd that Mr. Trump addressed was beyond friendly: It was devotional. While this was ostensibly a convention for the Republican Party of Georgia, a casual observer might be forgiven for thinking it was the Trump Party of Georgia. > > Mr. Trump’s name, slogans and **lies** about the 2020 election were proudly displayed by party activists. Women wore bejeweled Trump caps. Men wore caps reading “God, Guns and Trump.” References to the 2020 election were everywhere: T-shirts read “Trump won,” and plastered on delegates’ chests and backs were stickers bashing voting machines. > … My bold. Thank you, New York Times, for finally correctly calling them lies! No more “falsehoods, misstatements, prevarications, deceptions, distortions,” or other stupid euphemisms! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/136 "2023-06-11T04:26:13Z")
Wait! There’s more (take particular note of that last line below)! > The former president took the stage at state Republican conventions in Georgia and [North Carolina](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/northcarolina) where he lashed out against the Department of Justice, the FBI and the Biden administration, called his recent indictment “a travesty of justice” and repeated unsupported conspiratorial claims that Joe Biden had stashed secret documents in the Chinatown neighborhood of Washington DC. > > “We got to stand up to the … radical left Democrats, their lawless partisan prosecutors … Every time I fly over a blue state, I get a subpoena,” said Trump at the onset of the meandering speech that attempted to bridge his legal troubles with campaign promises. > > “I’ve put everything on the line and I will never yield. I will never be detained. I will never stop fighting for you,” he added. > > He went on to launch a tirade against federal officials, saying, “Now the Marxist left is once again using the same corrupt DoJ [justice department] and the same corrupt FBI, and the attorney general and the local district attorneys to interfere … They’re cheating. They’re crooked. They’re corrupt. These criminals cannot be rewarded. They must be defeated. You have to defeat them. > > “Because in the end, they’re not coming after me. They’re coming after you and I’m just standing in their way,” he said. - [SOURCE](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/10/donald-trump-georgia-speech-indictment-north-carolina) ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/137 "2023-06-11T13:57:06Z")
Again, IANAL, but Ken White (Popehat) raised the point in a recent podcast that Federal Prosecutors are really reluctant to object to a bench trial, since the judge is likely to perceive an objection as a personal insult. “What? I’m not objective or competent enough to come to a fair and just verdict?” Maybe in an Eileen Cannon-led trial it’s worth the bad blood, but that’s a calculation I hope Smith doesn’t have to make. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/138 "2023-06-11T14:13:57Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > The boxes were stored so haphazardly in a public place KNOWN to have been infiltrated by at least a few foreign spies, likely infiltrated by many unknown actors. Even if trump didn’t actively do anything with the info except fuel his masterbatory fantasies, he made it available to random bad actors who did who knows what. And that’s the slam dunk charge, I think. Even if we go over-the-top on giving him the benefit of the doubt, that he had no ill intent with these documents, that he never showed them to anyone, all of that, his efforts at storing them securely were entirely inadequate, hell, non-existent. That alone is enough to get him convicted, I’d think. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/139 "2023-06-11T14:31:11Z")
> [@NYTimes as excerpted by @Whack-a-Mole](#): > > “I’ve put everything on the line and I will never yield. I will never be detained. I will never stop fighting for you,” he added. > > He went on to launch a tirade against federal officials, saying, “Now the Marxist left is once again using the same corrupt DoJ [justice department] and the same corrupt FBI, and the attorney general and the local district attorneys to interfere … They’re cheating. They’re crooked. They’re corrupt. These criminals cannot be rewarded. They must be defeated. You have to defeat them. > > “Because in the end, they’re not coming after me. They’re coming after you and I’m just standing in their way,” he said. This is exactly how the entire 2024 federal election season will be framed for every position from President to statehouse representative. The Right is honest real America, the Left is criminal chaos whos _aaaallllmmmoooost_ completed their takeover. This is the final election; the Rs win now or America will be gone before 2028. It’s Apocalypse Now. His punchline "They’re coming after you and I’m just standing in their way,” is sheer genius. That is how you gather followers and turn followers into people happily willing to die for you. This part “I will never be detained.” seems to be a clear statement that he is a flight risk and should be in pre-trial detention now with no possibility of release until the trial has ended and only then if he is acquitted of all counts. Sadly that’s not what will happen. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251/140 "2023-06-11T16:33:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Sadly that’s not what will happen. ISTM that not enough powers-that-be truly understand the gravity of the situation and/or believe that, somehow, “civilized” rules will win the day and that everything will unfold properly as it should. I fear that trump’s, and his followers’, beliefs and actions will be validated and strengthened over the next several months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-indictment-does-it-matter/985251.md?page=8)