# Trump's ongoing collusion **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 20, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196 "2018-02-20T13:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/21 "2018-02-20T21:14:00Z")
> [@SteveMonon](#): > > I’m not quite sure I understand what the issue is here with Donald Trump’s behavior. > > We had the previous President literally [begging](http://www.wsj.com/video/obama-medvedev-hot-mic-gaffe/5F7CF09D-CFD5-4805-A72C-3378D5F8371E.html) Russia’s then-President Medvedev to please, please let Vladimir Putin know that after the elections he (Obama) would have more flexibility. Then-President Medvedev reassured then-President Obama that he would make Vladimir aware of Obama’s desperate pleas. > This was clear-cut of betrayal of American interests, caught on tape, no investigation required, made even worse by Mitt Romney slowly, patiently,like to a mental midget, explaining to Obama in 2012 that Russia is the US greatest geopolitical thread, only to have the said mental midget…laugh at Romney, instead of quietly listening, absorbing and thanking Mitt for sharing his wisdom. > Sure, one can say: “Well, what do you expect, no one ever accused Obama of being particularly bright, and he was just out of his league, dealing with Vladimir Putin”. > I’m sorry, but no, no and no. President of the United States begged foreign power to give him “more space”. No amount of spin will change this clear case of betrayal of US national interests and open collusion with Vladimir Putin. Right. Diplomatic overtures are clear evidence of treason. As opposed to calling for Russian hacking, refusing to enforce duly-passed and bipartisan sanctions, doing nothing about said hacking, denying that it exists in the face of all evidence to the contrary, attempting to take down the institutions that are investigating all of the above…and that’s just scratching the surface. Attempted distraction denied. Next… ---
**Author:** ![SteveMonon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@SteveMonon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveMonon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/22 "2018-02-20T21:17:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Right. Diplomatic overtures are clear evidence of treason. Right, right. Appeasing the greatest geopolitical threat US faced, ignoring (and laughing at) much smarter people who spelled out for the imbecile the danger Russia posed were just “diplomatic overtures”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/23 "2018-02-20T21:25:02Z")
> [@SteveMonon](#): > > We had the previous President literally [begging](http://www.wsj.com/video/obama-medvedev-hot-mic-gaffe/5F7CF09D-CFD5-4805-A72C-3378D5F8371E.html) Russia’s then-President Medvedev to please, please let Vladimir Putin know that after the elections he (Obama) would have more flexibility. You have, let’s be charitable, an ad hoc definition of _begging_. > [@](#): > > President of the United States begged foreign power to give him “more space”. Can you at least quote correctly? Obama was observing that the dynamics of a campaign constrain the actions an incumbent can take without giving the other party’s attack dogs some fresh meat, and that those constraints loosen or lift after the election. That \*should \*be fuckin’ obvious. As for Romney “knowing” the world better than Obama, this is a guy whose first diplomatic initiative as nominee was to go piss off _the British._ Some of us didn’t think that was even possible. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/24 "2018-02-20T21:33:17Z")
If it’s proven that there is no collusion/conspiracy? OK I’ll let him off on that. He’s still on the hook for Obstruction of Justice (he admitted it live on national TV). And god knows what else. (Bribery, money laundering, possible misuse of election funds to pay off a porn star, using his political position for personal gain [I forget what that act is called]). And basically failing to fulfill his duties as president. How many posts are vacant? The list is long. Not to mention that congress can impeach for just about any reason. Being an insulting, narcissistic, misogynistic, racist moron that cares about nothing other than himself is enough for me to impeach. He is an insult to American ideals and making a laughing stock of us to the rest of the world. How about you **Arizona Mike**? If he is cleared of what amounts to treason, are you going to give him a pass on everything else? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/25 "2018-02-20T21:56:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …As for Romney “knowing” the world better than Obama, this is a guy whose first diplomatic initiative as nominee was to go piss off _the British._ Some of us didn’t think that was even possible. > > You’re welcome. Hey, hey hey. No playing favorites. trump has pissed off the British, the Australians and Germany. And CANADA for gods sake. And Mexico of course (they are just mostly laughing at us though). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/26 "2018-02-20T22:02:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Right. Diplomatic overtures are clear evidence of treason. As opposed to calling for Russian hacking, refusing to enforce duly-passed and bipartisan sanctions, doing nothing about said hacking, denying that it exists in the face of all evidence to the contrary, attempting to take down the institutions that are investigating all of the above… …claiming to be tougher than Obama on Russia while not enforcing sanctions… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/27 "2018-02-20T22:15:04Z")
I don’t think he was colluding because Gepetto does not consult Pinocchio. And Trump very likely does not believe he was laundering money, he believes that rich Russian investors shrewdly realize what a real estate genius he is. Sure, some of them have rather a rough history, but that’s how you know these are hard-nosed, no-nonsense people! Who would conspire with a dim-witted motormouth? “The bodies are buried in Paul Manafort’s back yard, but don’t tweet that!”. Ten minutes, max. ---
**Author:** ![SteveMonon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@SteveMonon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveMonon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/28 "2018-02-20T22:30:11Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > …claiming to be tougher than Obama on Russia while not enforcing sanctions… You mean, Donald Trump refused to beg Putin for more space, while launching a missile strike against Russia’s closest ally, something that his Russia-colluding predecessor refused to do repeatedly, even after drawing the laughable ‘red line’, which clearly signaled to Putin that Obama can (and should ) be bitchslapped at will? ---
**Author:** ![SteveMonon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@SteveMonon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveMonon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/29 "2018-02-20T22:34:53Z")
By the way, all that begging that Obama did…Did Putin actually end up giving him more space? It looked to me like Vladimir Putin just laughed at Barry the Nincompoop and **TOOK** more space, by invading US close ally Ukraine. There’re 2 possibilities here: either Obama directly colluded with Russia (remember his and Hillary’s laughable “reset” policy with the greatest geopolitical threat US faced, coupled with Clinton’s Foundation inept attempts to shake down the Russians out of cool half a mil) or he was the most incompetent and gullible President ever. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/30 "2018-02-20T22:43:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Attempted distraction denied. Next… … ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/31 "2018-02-21T00:10:03Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > …claiming to be tougher than Obama on Russia while not enforcing sanctions… Eh, that’s a given. If the WH kitchen runs out of double-scoops of vanilla ice cream, it’s Obama’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/32 "2018-02-21T02:08:28Z")
Mueller is just the beginning of the Trump investigations. It isn’t like when Mueller is done we can wrap everything up and never discuss it again. We still need to investigate Russian money being laundered through the republican party via groups like the NRA (supposedly they got $30 million in Russian money to fund republican races). We need to investigate all of Trump’s sex crimes and sexual behavior. All the women he paid off, the rumors of forced abortions, the sexual abuse allegations. All the crimes his administration has committed in office (security clearance issues, not using secure communications, emoluments abuses, etc). If a democrat wins in 2020, I hope they appoint another special counsel to investigate all this crap. And if the democrats win one house of congress in 2018 they need to investigate these things and pass their findings onto law enforcement. If the GOP can investigate BenGhazi 7 times, all this stuff deserves at minimum 10 investigations each. Plus any other crime Trump, his family, his administration or the GOP committed. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/33 "2018-02-21T02:38:48Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > … I guess we just differ in how we are assessing the likelihood of that. … That’s probably a safe bet. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > … My assessment is that the odds that Trump has committed some serious felonious money laundering is pretty damn high. … I’m genuinely curious: Have you watched or read something that led you to this conclusion? Or is it based off more of a general sense of Trump’s overall character without specific evidence of a crime available? > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > … I guess you are assessing his honesty higher than I am. It’s really got very little to do with his honesty (or lack thereof). I just haven’t personally seen any evidence that even begins to approach the “clear and convincing” standard I gave earlier. That’s a good thing, in my eyes, because it means Mueller’s investigation isn’t leaking (if they have such evidence), but I think it means we’re going to have to wait for the investigation to end … unless there’s something I’ve missed that you think I should be aware of. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/34 "2018-02-21T03:33:19Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > A question in response - if Muleller’s investigation clears the President of any collusion, will you (and others on this site) accept the conclusion, or continue t0 hold that, somehow, Trump MUST be guilty of collusion even if Mueller couldn’t find it? > I can see this Collusion Conspiracists eventually turning into something like the 9-11 Truthers or the Waco Conspiracists, continuing to argue their case for decades into the future on message boards and obscure websites. Wait wait wait… are you under the impression that the only thing Mueller is investigating is the possible collusion? I don’t think there was much, if any, outright Collusion. But there sure as hell was Obstruction of Justice and probably some Money Laundering at some point too. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/35 "2018-02-21T04:08:04Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > … probably some Money Laundering at some point too. Same question for you: what’s your basis for this belief? ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/36 "2018-02-21T12:07:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Same question for you: what’s your basis for this belief? Real estate sold to Russian Oligarchs ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/37 "2018-02-21T13:06:30Z")
Thank goodness for collusion. If only “Great Leaders” through history would have colluded, the masses would have been spared much torment. The idea that the charges in the indictment amount to anything more than trivial polliticking is a slap in the face to the armies of highly paid campaign consultants, seasoned “operatives”, and mass-broadcast pundits who participated in the election. This is probably why there is so much anxiety in the mainstream and leftist media and those plugged into it. The idea that they and those like them are not pulling every string is definitely an existential threat to their dreams of domination. The “experts” think they were upstaged by the Unanointed. The truth is, the vast majority of people just don’t care about what the political “experts” think. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/38 "2018-02-21T13:15:27Z")
> [@SteveMonon](#): > > By the way, all that begging that Obama did…Did Putin actually end up giving him more space? > It looked to me like Vladimir Putin just laughed at Barry the Nincompoop and **TOOK** more space, by invading US close ally Ukraine. > There’re 2 possibilities here: either Obama directly colluded with Russia (remember his and Hillary’s laughable “reset” policy with the greatest geopolitical threat US faced, coupled with Clinton’s Foundation inept attempts to shake down the Russians out of cool half a mil) or he was the most incompetent and gullible President ever. The US initiated a coup in Ukraine and Russia secured its holding in Crimea. The US retaliated with imposing sanctions and backing nazi militias who made war on ethnic Russians, just like the old times. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/39 "2018-02-21T14:03:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Same question for you: what’s your basis for this belief? The rationale for probable cause to develop evidence is that the Trump organization engaged in a pattern of business dealings that suggest money-laundering. More below: [Sales of Trump properties suggestive of money laundering.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-fusion/sales-of-trump-properties-suggestive-of-money-laundering-researcher-idUSKBN1F727X) > [@](#): > > “There were a lot of real estate deals where you couldn’t really tell who was buying the property,” Simpson said. “And sometimes properties would be bought and sold, and they would be bought for one price and sold for a loss shortly thereafter, and it really didn’t make sense to us.” > > “We saw patterns of buying and selling that we thought were suggestive of money-laundering,” he continued. [There’s a potential for Russian leverage here](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/theres-a-potential-for-russian-leverage-here/551024) > [@](#): > > The theory is that both sides would have something to gain. For Russian oligarchs and mobsters, there’s a need to launder money. “Generally speaking, the patterns of activity that we thought might be suggestive of money laundering were, you know, fast turnover deals and deals where there seemed to have been efforts to disguise the identity of the buyer,” Simpson told the committee in November. Trump, meanwhile, was in need of liquidity, because many banks were unwilling to do business with him after a corporate bankruptcy, and Russian buyers could provide quick infusions of cash. In other cases, the Trump Organization has appeared to have [gone out of its way](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal) to avoid doing due diligence on business partners. > > But while Simpson saw disturbing patterns, he was unable to nail anything down, because he couldn’t get the relevant records from banks and other financial institutions. So what we have is probable cause to gather evidence. House Republicans are doing everything in their power to thwart the evidence-gathering process, so any Republican calls to “show me the evidence” are easily seen as a joke. However, if Mueller’s special prosecution is doing any due diligence at all, then they are in the process of gathering such evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/40 "2018-02-21T14:24:23Z")
> [@SteveMonon](#): > > You mean, Donald Trump refused to beg Putin for more space, while launching a missile strike against Russia’s closest ally That’ll be the missile strike Trump gave Russia (and thus Syria) advance warning of, against an airbase that was still operational and launching attacks hours afterwards? Wow…he really showed them. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The US initiated a coup in Ukraine and Russia secured its holding in Crimea. The US retaliated with imposing sanctions and backing nazi militias who made war on ethnic Russians, just like the old times. …according to Russian trolls, but not actual reality. Russia didn’t “secure its holdings in Crimea”; it “secured” the entire fucking Crimea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196.md?page=3)