# Trump's Republican primary campaign **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 3, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828 "2015-09-03T18:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 95
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1885 "2016-02-09T19:14:29Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I think you are having some trouble parsing the sentence. It is undeniable “in that sense”, as in the sense that “Islam is traced patrilineally”, which it is. Not by Obama. And that is all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1886 "2016-02-09T19:26:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not by Obama. And that is all that matters. That’s irrelevant to the veracity of the claim, since the claim was about his Muslimness at birth, according to the patrilineal descent rules of Islam, not his self identity. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1887 "2016-02-09T19:30:44Z")
How is it relevant to the knowledge of the author of the Salon piece? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1888 "2016-02-09T19:49:48Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > That’s irrelevant to the veracity of the claim, since the claim was about his Muslimness at birth, according to the patrilineal descent rules of Islam, not his self identity. Those rules only apply to Muslims; Muslims believe their religion is passed on from the father. I am not a Muslim; I don’t believe any religion is descended from the parents. Obama does not believe he is a Muslim, therefore his father’s religion is irrelevant. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1889 "2016-02-09T20:05:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How is it relevant to the knowledge of the author of the Salon piece? The quote was listed with a bunch of conspiratorial ignorance spouted off by Trump supporters. It is clear that the author included it because he assumed that the statement would further his aim of showcasing the ignorance of Trump supporters, when all it did was to showcase the author’s own ignorance on the subject. [QUOTE=Fear Itself] Those rules only apply to Muslims; Muslims believe their religion is passed on from the father. I am not a Muslim; I don’t believe any religion is descended from the parents. Obama does not believe he is a Muslim, therefore his father’s religion is irrelevant. [/QUOTE] It is relevant to the question of whether or not he was born a Muslim, according to the descent rules of Islam, which is the only claim made. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1890 "2016-02-09T20:19:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Those rules only apply to Muslims; Muslims believe their religion is passed on from the father. I am not a Muslim; I don’t believe any religion is descended from the parents. Obama does not believe he is a Muslim, therefore his father’s religion is irrelevant. QED. Exactly. Those who believe it can believe it. But since I do not believe religion is heritable, I do not believe someone can be born a Muslim. The initial assertion, therefore, is invalid for me. And the initial assertion was not “Muslims believe Islam is patrilineal.” It was “Islam is patrilineal.” Nope. That’s not a fact that can be asserted. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1891 "2016-02-09T20:38:24Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The quote was listed with a bunch of conspiratorial ignorance spouted off by Trump supporters. It is clear that the author included it because he assumed that the statement would further his aim of showcasing the ignorance of Trump supporters, when all it did was to showcase the author’s own ignorance on the subject. Why? Did the author claim it was untrue, either explicitly or by implication? Did he use the term “ignorant”? Exactly what point is the author ignorant of? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1892 "2016-02-09T20:39:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The quote was listed with a bunch of conspiratorial ignorance spouted off by Trump supporters. And it **is.** The article was pointing and laughing at someone idiotic enough to think it is in any way **relevant** that Obama was “born a Muslim.” ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1893 "2016-02-09T20:39:58Z")
Now you are reaching so far that I fear you might tear something. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Exactly. Those who believe it can believe it. But since I do not believe religion is heritable, I do not believe someone can be born a Muslim. The initial assertion, therefore, is invalid for me. > > And the initial assertion was not “Muslims believe Islam is patrilineal.” It was “Islam is patrilineal.” Nope. That’s not a fact that can be asserted. Wrong. The assertion was that Islam “is traced” patrilineally, which is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1894 "2016-02-09T20:40:15Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > That’s irrelevant to the veracity of the claim, since the claim was about his Muslimness at birth, according to the patrilineal descent rules of Islam, not his self identity. He can’t be forced to be a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1895 "2016-02-09T20:41:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why? Did the author claim it was untrue, either explicitly or by implication? Did he use the term “ignorant”? Exactly what point is the author ignorant of? Yes, he implied it was untrue by listing it with other things that were untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1896 "2016-02-09T20:42:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > He can’t be forced to be a Muslim. Nor can Muslims be forced to not consider someone with a Muslim father to be Muslim at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1897 "2016-02-09T20:43:23Z")
What other things did he list with it that are untrue? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1898 "2016-02-09T20:44:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And it **is.** The article was pointing and laughing at someone idiotic enough to think it is in any way **relevant** that Obama was “born a Muslim.” No, the article was written by someone idiotic enough that he didn’t even know that Islam is traced patrilineally, and so he included that fact in a list of conspiracy theories as if it was the ravings of a crazy person instead of a simple fact. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1899 "2016-02-09T20:49:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What other things did he list with it that are untrue? Birther crap: “serious misgivings about the President’s U.S. citizenship”, “the President is from Kenya.” "Obama is too much of a Muslim” “In our Constitution, it says that the president has to be an American citizen,” Reif said. “I’m still wondering where is he really from. What is this man’s background?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1900 "2016-02-09T20:51:43Z")
All of which is part of one excerpt from a CNN article, not a list put together by the Salon author. The point is to show that Trump supporters are “angry, afraid and motivated by racial animus,” which are the author’s words rather than the ones you are projecting on him. It is of course undeniable (to use a Trump supporter’s word) that anyone who thinks Muslim dogma about Obama’s religion is relevant is not just those things but really dumb. But the author never says that. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1901 "2016-02-09T21:13:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > All of which is part of one excerpt from a CNN article, not a list put together by the Salon author. The point is to show that Trump supporters are “angry, afraid and motivated by racial animus,” which are the author’s words rather than the ones you are projecting on him. > > It is of course undeniable (to use a Trump supporter’s word) that anyone who thinks Muslim dogma about Obama’s religion is relevant is not just those things but really dumb. But the author never says that. Nothing in the quote in question shows anything about anger, or fear, or anything at all racial. It is a simple fact about him being born from a Muslim father. If anything it hints at xenophobia, which is not the same as racism. And it’s not dumb to think it is relevant. If it was not relevant then Obama would not have canceled his trip to Amritsar to avoid being photographed in a head covering before the 2012 election. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1902 "2016-02-09T21:19:22Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Now you are reaching so far that I fear you might tear something. > > Wrong. The assertion was that Islam “is traced” patrilineally, which is a fact. Nope. Sorry. It’s not a fact. You may trace it that way. I don’t. A Muslim might. Another Muslim might not. Religion is not genetic (even if religiosity might be). I do not assign someone to a religious faith based on an accident of birth. And yes, I find it profoundly ignorant that some Trump supporters not only do, but that they consider it valid, important, and worth talking about in public. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1903 "2016-02-09T21:24:24Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Nothing in the quote in question shows anything about anger, or fear, or anything at all racial. It is a simple fact about him being born from a Muslim father. If anything it hints at xenophobia, which is not the same as racism. And it’s not dumb to think it is relevant. If it was not relevant then Obama would not have canceled his trip to Amritsar to avoid being photographed in a head covering before the 2012 election. Well, someone here is reaching. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828/1904 "2016-02-09T21:27:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Nope. Sorry. It’s not a fact. You may trace it that way. I don’t. A Muslim might. Another Muslim might not. > > Religion is not genetic (even if religiosity might be). I do not assign someone to a religious faith based on an accident of birth. And yes, I find it profoundly ignorant that some Trump supporters not only do, but that they consider it valid, important, and worth talking about in public. Here is support for my argument: [PolitiFact | Graham said the "seed of Islam" passes through the father to Obama. We found widespread disagreement.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/26/franklin-graham/graham-said-seed-islam-passes-through-father-obama/) > [@](#): > > Most of the sources said that whether one truly is a Muslim or not depends on the belief in Muslim teaching and the following of its practices, not whether one is born into the faith. > > Blain Auer, an assistant professor of Islamic studies at Western Michigan University, said the most prominent requirement is for believers to recite the shahadah, a statement of faith that affirms “I witness that there is no god but God and Mohammed is his Messenger.” > > “Franklin Graham’s statement is incorrect. Islam is an act of faith, not a genetic disposition,” Auer said via e-mail. > > Representatives of Muslim groups in the United States also said Graham’s description was inaccurate. “It’s not something one inherits automatically or biologically. What is important is the self-identification, (regardless of the) background they may have been born into,” said Sayyid M. Syeed, national director of the Islamic Society of North America. This is my last post on the topic in this thread. Apologies to all for contributing to the hijack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828.md?page=94) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-republican-primary-campaign/729828.md?page=96)