# Trump's Shutdown **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577 "2019-01-11T06:18:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/281 "2019-01-22T17:56:39Z")
Volunteer services are _always_ more efficient than the government, because to believe otherwise would call into question 30 years of “free market” indoctrination. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/282 "2019-01-22T18:00:30Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Maybe they can get volunteers. I’m sure volunteer air traffic controllers would do a bang-up job. This is a golden opportunity for the libertarians to show how much better life could be. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/283 "2019-01-22T18:03:22Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Maybe they can get volunteers. I’m sure volunteer air traffic controllers would do a bang-up job. **Volunteer ATC:** American 1234, cleared to land, runway Two-Four… Delta 7768, cleared to land, runway Six. **American 1234:** Uh, tower… You just cleared _us_ for _Two-Four!_ **Volunteer ATC:** Y’all be careful now, y’hear? \*\*ETA:\*\*Oh, and I did see what you did there. . ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/284 "2019-01-22T18:03:52Z")
The Free Market™ will fix all. The Free Market™ will train all. Because of the Free Market™, we can trust in people’s innate goodness, brought about by their innate selfishness, which is the most powerful force for good on The Free Market™! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/285 "2019-01-22T18:07:54Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Volunteer services are _always_ more efficient than the government, because to believe otherwise would call into question 30 years of “free market” indoctrination. Guy Fleegman: “Hey guys, there’s a red-thingy moving toward the green-thingy.” ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/286 "2019-01-22T18:21:01Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > [Their union has filed a lawsuit](https://www.thedailybeast.com/air-traffic-agents-sue-trump-as-airports-brace-for-sick-outs-with-shutdown-now-at-three-weeks-2), but that could take a long time to resolve. There is a suggestion in the linked article that there could be an increased rate of retirements. They can’t retire because there isn’t anyone to do the paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/287 "2019-01-22T18:28:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Pay issues notwithstanding, can they even hire new employees during a shutdown? My agency is, so yes. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/288 "2019-01-22T18:39:31Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > They can’t retire because there isn’t anyone to do the paperwork. I think the implication was that they’ll do so as soon as possible, and if it occurs in any significant numbers, that could have long-term effects. Which makes me wonder if this is having any effect on pension payouts, health insurance premium payments, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/289 "2019-01-22T20:02:06Z")
Let me add what I can, as an air traffic controller who retired December 22 (in other words, I got out ahead of the shutdown, as the FAA actually used some other funds to stay afloat until the next week): - A fellow controller adjusted his retirement to be effective on December 25, so he could get two extra holidays before his actual retirement date. Unfortunately he hasn’t gotten any info about his benefits or word that the FAA actually got his paperwork sent to OPM. So he’s in limbo at the moment (although he’s getting paid the exact same amount for staying home as he would for going to work -$0). - Any slowdown, work stoppage, or even talking about such by current air traffic controllers is a violation of contract and the oath we all took when we were hired. I suppose you could make the argument the government violated the contract first, by not paying what is owed, but that’s a clear path toward removal from government service and (I believe) potential jail/civil penalties. Reagan didn’t fire the PATCO controllers outright for striking - he gave them a deadline to get back to work - but there’s no guarantee Trump would be as gracious. - TSA employees don’t get paid nearly enough for what they’re asked to do. I don’t blame them for not showing up for work. Some of them, as mentioned, are getting other jobs (that actually pay them in real, spendable money at dependable intervals) so if your choice is going in to a job that promises to pay you eventually or skipping that to get paid right now, well, that’s not a tough decision. Will huge slowdowns at airport security be enough to bring pressure on McConnell and Trump? I dunno. - Speaking of insurance, there’s a story out today that says FBI agents are in danger of [losing their supplemental dental/vision coverage if they miss another paycheck](https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/fbi-agents-in-danger-of-losing-health-benefits-if-shutdown-persists/65-30f10a88-c606-4ee5-a215-2211eac27c03). People who don’t know may think federal employees have cushy health benefits; well, while our basic health coverage is pretty good, dental and vision coverage is almost nonexistent unless you pay for a supplemental plan, and now FBI employees might be losing that. I know I’m preaching to the choir, but the irony is overwhelming when Trump keeps harping on “the safety of the nation” when he’s hawking funding for the Wall™️, while at the same time he’s expecting air traffic controllers, TSA agents, Border Patrol officers, the Coast Guard, food inspectors, all these government employees who are ACTUALLY keeping us safe RIGHT NOW, to keep on working indefinitely without being paid. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/290 "2019-01-22T20:05:07Z")
Oh, and they aren’t hiring or training any new air traffic controllers right now. Most of the initial training is done by contractors; they’re not working. No one is processing paperwork on new hires. Considering the staffing shortfall that’s already facing ATC (which, as mentioned, could very well get worse fast if those eligible for retirement look at how they’re being treated and say, fuck it, I’m outta here), this is going to have some real long-term effects on controller numbers. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/291 "2019-01-22T20:15:25Z")
> [@Uncle Jocko](#): > > Any slowdown, work stoppage, or even talking about such by current air traffic controllers is a violation of contract and the oath we all took when we were hired. I suppose you could make the argument the government violated the contract first, by not paying what is owed, but that’s a clear path toward removal from government service and (I believe) potential jail/civil penalties. Could you expand on this? My understanding is that once someone stops paying me, they are no longer my employer. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/292 "2019-01-22T20:22:18Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > I think the implication was that they’ll do so as soon as possible, and if it occurs in any significant numbers, that could have long-term effects. Which makes me wonder if this is having any effect on pension payouts, health insurance premium payments, etc. As far as insurance premiums, the government is picking up their share for health insurance premiums which will keep them going for 12 months. Employees will have to pick up their missed portion of the premiums when we go back to work. We will have to start paying our share of vision and dental insurance after two missed paychecks, which means now. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/293 "2019-01-22T22:46:07Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Could you expand on this? My understanding is that once someone stops paying me, they are no longer my employer. I’m no expert in employment law, but for all “essential” employees I think the deal is you’re still employed, but your compensation is deferred. The controllers, TSA agents, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, etc, who are required to stay on the job have always known they’d get paid for the time worked eventually. That doesn’t make any of this any better - it’s hard to square how _any_ employer can get away with skipping regular paychecks for employees, even with a promise to make it up “sometime.” The bill that recently passed (and was signed by Trump) promised back pay for _all_ furloughed employees, whether they’ve been called in to work or not. That always was the case in past shutdowns, to be honest, but it was never guaranteed and always required Congressional action. Contractors, though, are still out of luck; they get paid only for services provided, and if they’re not actually performing work, they’re not getting paid, period (and one must admit it would be a logical stretch to refer to a service the government has contracted out to be “essential”). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/294 "2019-01-22T22:50:47Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > How long would you work without pay until you felt like you needed to do something about it? That actually did happen to me a few years ago - I walked off the job and took the former employer to court. And won. And _collected_. Normally I’d say one pay period, but when it happened to me there were intermittent payments and some checks that turned to rubber. If there was no pay coming _at all_ then I’d say one pay period. Then I’m looking for another job. Right now, Trump is betting all those people working without getting paid will continue to do so. I don’t think they’ll be able to do that much longer (those that haven’t quit already. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/295 "2019-01-22T22:55:03Z")
So is this shutdown ever going to directly effect Joe Q MAGA Trumpster? If so, how? Are welfare or medicare or medicaid at risk? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/296 "2019-01-22T23:02:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So is this shutdown ever going to directly effect Joe Q MAGA Trumpster? If so, how? Are welfare or medicare or medicaid at risk? As I said upthread, SNAP (‘Food Stamps’) is only funded through February. I think it’s safe to say there is a fair number of Trumpniks that will go hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/297 "2019-01-22T23:07:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So is this shutdown ever going to directly effect Joe Q MAGA Trumpster? If so, how? Are welfare or medicare or medicaid at risk? Yes. SNAP money is going to run out after February. Various shelters (homeless, woman’s, etc.) are no longer receiving government funds and are in financial distress. Section 8 vouchers are not being issued and tenants are reporting landlords demanding the full rent from them and/or threatening evictions starting at the end of February. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/298 "2019-01-22T23:23:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes. > > SNAP money is going to run out after February. Various shelters (homeless, woman’s, etc.) are no longer receiving government funds and are in financial distress. Section 8 vouchers are not being issued and tenants are reporting landlords demanding the full rent from them and/or threatening evictions starting at the end of February. So this whole thing will be over within two more months, then. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/299 "2019-01-22T23:33:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So this whole thing will be over within two more months, then. I think you are underestimating Americans’ abilities to live with hardships and the GOP’s commitment to less government. ETA: Originally, I thought this would drag on for a month or two. Air travel and SNAP being two of the biggest, IMO, motivators for people to tell their congresspeople and the POTUS to end this madness. Now, I’m seeing people trudge along as best they can, just like they do when injured or sick. Americans without learn to limp and accept a shorter, more painful life rather than force the ones who have to give some of it up. I’m seeing the same thing with regard to government services. I’m no longer confident that this will end in 2 months, or even 6. At this point, I’m convinced that Trump et al. are betting they can hold on and make this the new normal. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577/300 "2019-01-22T23:43:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > As I said upthread, SNAP (‘Food Stamps’) is only funded through February. I think it’s safe to say there is a fair number of Trumpniks that will go hungry. Surely people on SNAP should have a 6-month supply of food stamps saved up for emergencies, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-shutdown/827577.md?page=16)