# Trump's submission to foreign leaders' orders: Tote Board
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [December 16, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892 "2016-12-16T22:26:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/1 "2016-12-16T22:26:36Z")
Of course this tote board won’t really get going until Trump takes office. But already we’re seeing an explicit example of how Trump’s obedience to orders given him by foreign leaders will be manifested (in the Turkey situation).
Equally of course, Trump won’t frame his submission to orders as submission–he’ll say that whatever he’s doing (on orders) is All His Own Idea. But he will be obedient all the same.
In the case of Turkey: The Turkish leader, Erdogan, has a political enemy who’s been living in the USA for several years. Erdogan would like to get his hands on this enemy. But the US Government has been saying ‘no, we won’t give him to you’ consistently for, again, years. (The enemy is a Turkish cleric named Fethullah Gulen who’s been living in the US for seventeen years; he got a green card in 2001.)
So Erdogan realized that Trump has MONEY at risk in Turkey–namely, he’s been getting and hopes to continue to get huge fees from a company run by a family called Dogan (for use of the Trump name on “twin towers” in Istanbul).
Lo and behold, Erdogan arrested an executive of this company on, er, trumped-up charges. And:
> [@](#):
>
> As [Newsweek reporter Kurt] Eichenwald notes in his article: “If Erdoğan’s government puts more pressure on the company that’s paying millions of dollars to Trump and his children, revenue flowing from that tower complex in Istanbul could be cut off. That means Erdoğan has leverage with Trump, who will soon have the power to get Gulen extradited.”
> **[‘It’s happening’: Maddow previews ‘explosive' Newsweek story that hints at...](https://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/its-happening-maddow-previews-explosive-newsweek-story-that-hints-at-turkeys-blackmail-of-trump/)**
>
> In a preview of a Newsweek article due to be released Tuesday morning, MSNBC's Rachel Maddow explained that reporter Kurt Eichenwald has uncovered evidence that President-elect Donald Trump may have already been compromised by a foreign leader...
The Newsweek story details additional opportunities that world leaders will have to give Trump orders—_'do as I say or you will be out $$$$$$$$$$$!_’ And Trump will do as they say:
The Philippines:
> [@](#):
>
> Some of the most egregious conflicts that have emerged involve countries in Asia and its subregions, particularly the Philippines. Global policy on the Philippines has been fraught with tension since the election in May of Rodrigo Duterte as the country’s president. Duterte, who boasted to voters during the campaign that he had shot a fellow law school student for teasing him, has championed the killing of suspected criminals and street children by vigilante death squads. …
>
> Since then, the estimated death toll has climbed to 4,500. The carnage has been condemned throughout the Western world; the Parliament of the European Union and two United Nations human rights experts have urged Duterte to end the massacre.
> … Despite universal condemnation of the ongoing slaughter of Filipinos, Trump signaled his approval of Duterte’s policies during a phone call on December 2. According to Duterte—an account that has gone uncontested by Trump—the president-elect endorsed his tactics as “the right way.” …
> ((Why??? – because: )) The Trump family has an enormous financial interest in keeping Duterte happy. Trump Tower at Century City in Makati, Philippines, is on the verge of completion
> **[Inside the Conflict Zone](https://www.newsweek.com/2016/12/23/donald-trump-foreign-business-deals-jeopardize-us-531140.html)**
>
> The president-elect is issuing statements to world leaders that radically depart from U.S. foreign policy, and benefit his family's corporate empire.
Duterte orders Trump to praise him and support him against the condemnation of the rest of the world; Trump complies. After all, Trump’s money is at stake!
Taiwan:
On December 3, Trump made headlines by taking a phone call from Taiwan’s President–in defiance of decades of US precedent both about dealing with Taiwan and about what role presidents-elect are supposed to take in interfering with US foreign policy (none).
> [@](#):
>
> Why did he not wait? Only Trump knows, but allegations have already emerged that the decision may have been influenced by his family’s financial interests. Cheng Wen-tsan, mayor of Taoyuan, Taiwan, told The China Times that a representative from Trump’s company named Chen Siting, who is also known as Charlyne Chen, had visited to express the family’s interest in building a hotel near the city’s airport. According to the mayor, Chen also said that Eric Trump would be visiting the island by the end of the year.
> **[Inside the Conflict Zone](https://www.newsweek.com/2016/12/23/donald-trump-foreign-business-deals-jeopardize-us-531140.html)**
>
> The president-elect is issuing statements to world leaders that radically depart from U.S. foreign policy, and benefit his family's corporate empire.
Did the leader of Taiwan order Trump to ‘recognize us, or you won’t be able to build your hotel here?’–we don’t yet know. But it’s perfectly possible.
Then we come to the most obvious of leaders-Trump-will-obey:
Russia’s Putin:
Though Trump probably has convinced himself that Putin thinks he’s wonderful and brilliant–and Trump is desperate for Putin’s approval–the more likely stimulus that will ensure his obedience to Putin is, again, money.
As Trump’s son admitted some years ago:
> [@](#):
>
> “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia,” Trump’s son, Donald Jr., said at a real estate conference in 2008, according to a trade publication, eTurboNews.
> **[Donald Trump's Many, Many, Many, Many Ties to Russia](https://time.com/4433880/donald-trump-ties-to-russia/)**
>
> His dodge is a classic magician’s trick
And it’s been speculated that Russian banks may have underwritten loans to Trump after US banks no longer would do so:
> [@](#):
>
> It’s already been well documented that American banks are no longer willing (source: Wall Street Journal) to loan money to Donald Trump due to his pattern of strategically not paying his bills or repaying his debts when he thinks he can get away with it. And yet he’s managed to nearly double his debt load (source: Bloomberg) over the past year by borrowing a flurry of funds from overseas investors. Why have these foreign bankers been willing to make the risky move of loaning money to Trump if they know there’s a strong chance it won’t be paid back? The short answer is that they have been gambling that they were buying influence over the United States government if Trump became President.
[http://www.dailynewsbin.com/opinion/deeply-in-debt-to-russians-donald-trump-may-only-be-running-for-president-to-avoid-bankruptcy/25398/](http://www.dailynewsbin.com/opinion/deeply-in-debt-to-russians-donald-trump-may-only-be-running-for-president-to-avoid-bankruptcy/25398/)
The Bloomberg citation mentioned above: [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-07-19/trump-is-richer-in-property-and-deeper-in-debt-in-new-valuation)
Trump has financial concerns in dozens of countries. The leaders of any and all of them will be able to give Trump orders.
Trump will pretend that he’s doing exactly as he wants to do–but he’ll be following orders. After all, _his money will be at stake_.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/2 "2016-12-16T23:41:19Z")
Oddly enough, the author of that piece is filing charges against a person for a physical assault that occurred last night… on Twitter.
Eichenwald is epileptic. A person, knowing this (as they said) responded with a graphic known to cause epilepsy.
It worked and Kurt had an… episode? Attack?
So Kurt is bringing criminal charges and is subpoenaing (is that a word?) Twitter to release their name.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/3 "2016-12-16T23:56:54Z")
I hadn’t heard about that (thanks). It would appear that Eichenwald’s work has really touched a nerve in Trumpland.
They are using everything in their arsenal, including not only the anonymous trolls attempting physical harm via epileptic-attack graphic, but also Trump-like attacks on his professionalism (by the not-particularly-respectable Tucker Carlson).
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/4 "2016-12-17T00:06:41Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Trump has financial concerns in dozens of countries. The leaders of any and all of them will be able to give Trump orders.
>
> Trump will pretend that he’s doing exactly as he wants to do–but he’ll be following orders. After all, _his money will be at stake_.
Not to worry. Trump’s Secretary of State has years of government experience, and is not beholden to any other country on earth. I’m sure that we can all be very confident that America’s interests will be well looked after.
ha ha ha ha ha! You are correct of course. The international policy of the United States of America can now be boiled down to one simple statement:
“Will this make Donald Trump more money?”
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/5 "2016-12-17T01:05:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> Not to worry. Trump’s Secretary of State has years of government experience, and is not beholden to any other country on earth. I’m sure that we can all be very confident that America’s interests will be well looked after.
>
> ha ha ha ha ha! You are correct of course. The international policy of the United States of America can now be boiled down to one simple statement:
>
> “Will this make Donald Trump more money?”
One would assume he will be anxious to match–and exceed!–Putin’s record on looting his _own_ nation. Estimates of Putin’s takings range as high as $200 billion.
(Interesting suggestion from a Bloomberg columnist, that Obama should reveal Putin’s wealth as payback for the election-hacking: [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-12-13/obama-should-out-putin-s-wealth-after-election-hack) )
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### Author:  [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/6 "2016-12-17T05:11:10Z")
The president shouldn’t do what rich foreigners tell him, he should do what rich Americans tell him.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/7 "2016-12-17T06:11:24Z")
N/m, the joke didn’t flow like I thought it would…
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### Author:  [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/8 "2016-12-17T07:32:50Z")
I wonder if Erdogan, Duterte, etc. face pressure in their own countries to be more ethical than the scenarios of the OP suggest. It would be unethical for Trump to cave to financial pressure from Erdogan and extradite Gulen, but wouldn’t it also be unethical for Erdogan to apply that kind of pressure? Would it violate any Turkish laws for him to do so, or would Turkish voters punish him for doing so? Not that I want to rely on Turkey to keep the U.S. president honest, but it’s not purely an American issue, either.
> [@](#):
>
> It’s already been well documented that American banks are no longer willing (source: Wall Street Journal) to loan money to Donald Trump due to his pattern of strategically not paying his bills or repaying his debts when he thinks he can get away with it. And yet he’s managed to nearly double his debt load (source: Bloomberg) over the past year by borrowing a flurry of funds from overseas investors. Why have these foreign bankers been willing to make the risky move of loaning money to Trump if they know there’s a strong chance it won’t be paid back? The short answer is that they have been gambling that they were buying influence over the United States government if Trump became President.
I’m not sure how that give Russia leverage over Trump. They threaten to call in the loan, Trump refuses, then what? If Trump’s assets in Russia exceed his debts there, that’s something, but I have to wonder how Putin would go about confiscating a Trump hotel in Moscow.
“If you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem.”
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### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/9 "2016-12-17T13:18:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> I’m not sure how that give Russia leverage over Trump. They threaten to call in the loan, Trump refuses, then what? If Trump’s assets in Russia exceed his debts there, that’s something, but I have to wonder how Putin would go about confiscating a Trump hotel in Moscow.
>
> “If you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem.”
The leverage would be Trump’s ego - they threaten to expose him as a non-billionaire. Now, he’s declared bankruptcy before, so it may not bother him, but that would be the stick.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/10 "2016-12-17T13:45:59Z")
So, how can the Russians take over Trump Moscow? With troops. Is this a trick question?
The “owe the bank” quote is derived from the expectations of a modern capitalist society, which is different from the expectations of a modern autocratic society. JP Morgan Chase does not have an army at its disposal. Putin’s bank does.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/11 "2016-12-17T13:55:29Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> So, how can the Russians take over Trump Moscow? With troops. Is this a trick question?
Right, but I doubt Trump owns Trump Moscow, (if that even exists or would exist in the future). He typically licenses his name. So, typical of his business methods, he would be out maybe a million per year in licensing fees if Trump Moscow folded, but the hotel owners would be shafted of the capital and the rest of the profits.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/12 "2016-12-17T14:16:25Z")
Point I’m making is the quote about “owning the bank” doesn’t apply when the bank has the Russian Army at its disposal.
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### Author:  [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/13 "2016-12-17T14:25:07Z")
If he can be held hostage financially (or if he is held hostage financially), then he’s compromised and can’t act independently as President.
Wouldn’t the 25th Amendment, Section Four apply…?
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/14 "2016-12-17T14:27:58Z")
What I’m trying to say is that Russia’s reach _specifically to Trump’s assets_ only reaches as far as Russia itself can reach, and Trump would be foolish to have assets within Russia. Which is not to say that Russia would not threaten action against America or the West because Trump owes him money, it’s just that it would not _directly_ lead to asset seizure from him like you seem to be suggesting.
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### Author:  [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/15 "2016-12-17T20:59:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> Point I’m making is the quote about “owning the bank” doesn’t apply when the bank has the Russian Army at its disposal.
Yes, but I wonder if the Russian Army is so totally at Putin’s disposal that they can just confiscate property on his say so. And what would the Russian government do with the hotel once it had it?
What I was really getting at, though, was the net balance. Suppose Trump owes $10 million to a Russian bank, and Trump Hotel Moscow is worth $5 million. Trump is the one with the leverage. It’s more likely he’d provoke an international incident, watch the Russian Army take possession of the hotel, and now he has an excuse to keep the $10 million.
None of which should ever, ever, ever happen. The mere fact that we can envision scenarios in which a U.S. president could act this way is exactly why he should divest.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/16 "2016-12-17T21:07:01Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#):
>
> If he can be held hostage financially (or if he is held hostage financially), then he’s compromised and can’t act independently as President.
>
> Wouldn’t the 25th Amendment, Section Four apply…?
Only to the extent that Congress is willing to enforce it.
And this is a GOP congress eager for all the wealth that will flow into their own personal bank accounts–to a slight extent directly but mostly indirectly–from the privatizing they are planning to do (Medicare, Social Security, public education, etc).
IF they believe that Mike Pence will sign off on everything, then they may start impeachment proceedings on January 21. But if they think they can get more cooperation from Trump (mainly because Trump is so willing to make deals that benefit him), they will conveniently forget about the “unfit to discharge the powers and duties of his office” clause, not to mention the Emoluments clause.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/17 "2016-12-18T20:51:30Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> I wonder if Erdogan, Duterte, etc. face pressure in their own countries to be more ethical than the scenarios of the OP suggest. It would be unethical for Trump to cave to financial pressure from Erdogan and extradite Gulen, but wouldn’t it also be unethical for Erdogan to apply that kind of pressure? Would it violate any Turkish laws for him to do so, or would Turkish voters punish him for doing so?
Many nations that call themselves democracies are actually fairly authoritarian regimes, with little or no free press, and elections that wouldn’t pass any sort of test of being free or fair.
Turkey gets categorized that way fairly often. From November of this year:
> [@](#):
>
> This week, the World Justice Project’s rule of law index placed Turkey 99th of 113 countries, just behind Iran and Myanmar. It has reclaimed its place as the world’s main jailer of journalists. A couple of analysts who I asked to interview for this piece were unwilling to be quoted, for fear of speaking out.
> “It is the end of democracy”, the HDP’s Deputy President Hisyar Ozsoy told the BBC.
> “We didn’t have much democracy anyway, but even the very limited democratic space is totally wiped out”.
> **[Is Turkey still a democracy?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37883006)**
>
> As opponents are purged and journalists jailed, can Erdogan's Turkey still be called a democracy?
We definitely _cannot_ count on considerations of ethics as held by other nations, keeping Trump from being extorted, blackmailed, and given orders by the leaders of those nations.
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> I’m not sure how that give Russia leverage over Trump. They threaten to call in the loan, Trump refuses, then what?
The leverage can come in many forms. Flows of cash that have been coming to Trump directly from Russia (in various deals made over the years) can be stopped. Additionally, Russia has leverage over many other nations due to deals they have with them (over oil, sale of arms, etc.) and could stop deals Trump might have with _those_ nations from paying off for Trump.
As Folacin suggested, another avenue Putin will have for enforcing Trump’s obedience is the potential humiliation Trump would suffer if Putin made public the amount of Trump’s ‘net worth’ that is actually subject to loans-being-called-in by Trump’s Russian creditors.
Another potential for humiliating Trump–and thereby ensuring his obedience–may exist in the form of videos that Trump would do anything to keep from being made public.
For example: Trump has a well-known penchant for walking in on half-dressed beauty pageant contestants:
> [@](#):
>
> In other uncovered audio from Howard Stern’s radio show in 2005, Trump could be heard discussing how he would use his position of power in the pageants to peek at women while they were undressed.
>
> “I’ll go backstage before a show and everyone’s getting dressed and ready and everything else. And you know, no men are anywhere. And I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant. And therefore, I’m inspecting it. You know I’m inspecting it. I want to make sure everything is good,” Trump told Stern at the time. “You know they’re standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that.”
> **[Former Miss Arizona: Trump "came strolling right in" to Miss USA dressing room](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-miss-arizona-trump-came-strolling-right-in-to-miss-usa-dressing-room/)**
>
> Some girls were even topless or naked, a 2001 beauty pageant contestant recalled
How unlikely is it that if Trump did this during one of his Moscow visits (say, to the 2013 Miss Universe contest), there might be video of him swanning around backstage with the women, certain that they are enthralled by him…and then, after he leaves, the women _laugh at him_…?
If such footage existed, Trump would do anything—_anything_, to keep it from becoming public.
He’d give Putin Alaska back. Hell, he’d give him the US Navy.
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### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2016, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/18 "2016-12-19T05:59:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> Not to worry. Trump’s Secretary of State has years of government experience, and is not beholden to any other country on earth. I’m sure that we can all be very confident that America’s interests will be well looked after.
>
> ha ha ha ha ha! You are correct of course. The international policy of the United States of America can now be boiled down to one simple statement:
>
> “Will this make Donald Trump more money?”
The US has already lost the cyber war with Russia. We’re powerless to stop them due to the moron’s failure to believe his BFF Putin was behind the attacks.
See Van Jones’ the ‘Cyber war is real war’ on CNN. He pretty well covers it. We’ve all been warned, we’re all aware of the problem, and of course, Trump will do nothing at all about it least he looses a chance to build a golf course in Moscow.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/19 "2016-12-19T07:26:40Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#):
>
> The US has already lost the cyber war with Russia. We’re powerless to stop them …
I can’t tell if you’re serious. Do you really believe we can do nothing to Russia? That we “lost the cyber war”?
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### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2016, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-submission-to-foreign-leaders-orders-tote-board/774892/20 "2016-12-19T08:37:10Z")
Not so much as lost as surrendered without a fight.
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