# Trump's Transgender Policy for the Military **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184 "2017-07-26T17:53:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/101 "2017-08-01T01:58:09Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because the male military culture is not really accepting towards gays or transgendered people, for better or worse. And they were super cool with letting blacks serve in 1948? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/102 "2017-08-01T02:02:17Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because the male military culture is not really accepting towards gays or transgendered people, for better or worse. It is what it is. Maybe it’s changed since I was in. We had a Jordanian guy in our platoon in basic that constantly got the rest of us punished with PT because he was a slacker. Eventually one night most of the platoon beat the shit out of him and shortly after, he quit and the platoon was better off for it. Again, in the military, conformity is the rule of law. Don’t like it? Quit or suffer. Seriously, that sounds harsh but it IS the culture. I don’t think you’re understanding it correctly in your defense of transgendered people. I already pointed out that the military commissioned a study from RAND and they found no problems with uniit cohesion in the militaries they studied that allowed transgender people into the military. If you were honestly curious, you really should have come across that by now. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/103 "2017-08-01T02:02:53Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because the male military culture is not really accepting towards gays or transgendered people, for better or worse. It is what it is. Maybe it’s changed since I was in. We had a Jordanian guy in our platoon in basic that constantly got the rest of us punished with PT because he was a slacker. Eventually one night most of the platoon beat the shit out of him and shortly after, he quit and the platoon was better off for it. Again, in the military, conformity is the rule of law. Don’t like it? Quit or suffer. Seriously, that sounds harsh but it IS the culture. I don’t think you’re understanding it correctly in your defense of transgendered people. I seriously do hope it’s changed since you’ve been in. I know it wasn’t like that when I was in from 1979 to 2000. Punishing the entire platoon with PT is not only a violation of the regulations, but is also counterproductive. The mass assault of an individual, well, I’m sure you don’t need to have that explained to you. The guy was a slacker in BCT? Fine, separate him from the military. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/104 "2017-08-01T02:03:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because the male military culture is not really accepting towards gays or transgendered people, for better or worse. It is what it is. Maybe it’s changed since I was in. We had a Jordanian guy in our platoon in basic that constantly got the rest of us punished with PT because he was a slacker. Eventually one night most of the platoon beat the shit out of him and shortly after, he quit and the platoon was better off for it. Again, in the military, conformity is the rule of law. Don’t like it? Quit or suffer. Seriously, that sounds harsh but it IS the culture. I don’t think you’re understanding it correctly in your defense of transgendered people. When were you in? Did the guy get beat because he was Jordanian or a slacker? Do you think beating fellow recruits is the best way to enforce conformity? Do you know how much conformity is required of today’s military? Do your job, protect your Wingman (I was Air Force), accomplish the mission. Those are the values today. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/105 "2017-08-01T02:18:49Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > My father, a retired Army general, just emailed me this purported statement from Congressman Trey Gowdy. I don’t know whom he is nor the provenance of this statement alleged to be from him, but I thought I’d just drop it here. Having served as enlisted for four years myself (along with basically everyone male in my family, vets of every war dating back to WWII), I can see the logic in it: There’s really no logic in this when you realize what the person who originated it is using it to excuse. Basically, the originator is using the entire thing as a thinly disguised screed, is using the entire thing out of context. Let me explain: > [@](#): > > "_Nobody has a “right” to serve in the Military. Nobody._ No. But what they do have a right is to be treated in a less than arbitrary manner. For example, it is wrong to prohibit persons of a certain race or religion from serving solely based on that race or religion. That is not mandating a “right to serve in the military”, it is mandating that the military not be capricious. > [@](#): > > _What makes people think the Military is an equal opportunity employer? Very far from it._ Actually, it is an equal opportunity employer, especially for the civilian positions. But as far as for military positions, it is also an EOO in that positions in the military cannot be closed to persons based on criteria such as race, religion, or even gender unless such a prohibition can be proven to be a reasonable and effective requirement of the position. > [@](#): > > \*The Military uses prejudice regularly and consistently to deny citizens from joining for being too old or too young, too fat or too skinny, too tall or too short. > > Citizens are denied for having flat feet, or for missing or additional fingers. Poor eyesight will disqualify you, as well as bad teeth. Malnourished? Drug addiction? Bad back? Criminal history? Low IQ? Anxiety? Phobias? Hearing damage? Six arms? Hear voices in your head? Self-identify as a Unicorn? > > Need a special access ramp for your wheelchair? Can’t run the required course in the required time? Can’t do the required number of pushups? > > Not really a “morning person” and refuse to get out of bed before noon? > > All can be reasons for denial.\* There is a difference between prohibiting someone who’s obese from serving in a profession which reasonably requires a certain state of physical fitness and prohibiting someone from serving in that profession based on race, religion, or gender. The person originating this screed either knows that and is being disingenuous or is simply stupid if he doesn’t know that. > [@](#): > > \*The Military has one job. War. Anything else is a distraction and a liability. > > Did someone just scream “That isn’t Fair”? War is VERY unfair, there are no exceptions made for being special or challenged or socially wonderful. > > YOU change yourself to meet Military standards. Not the other way around. > > I say again: You don’t change the Military… you must change yourself. > > The Military doesn’t need to accommodate anyone with special issues. The Military needs to Win Wars. > > If any of your personal issues are a liability that detract from readiness or lethality… Thank you for applying and good luck in future endeavors. Who’s next in line?\*" The screed’s originator also completely ignored certain aspects of United States military history, most importantly the part where President Truman forced them to integrate the races. The military of course has standards. The issue here and now, just like it was when there was segregation, is “Are those standards reasonable?” Well, the evidence shows that certain standards are not reasonable. You know what else isn’t reasonable? Yep, it’s that BS screed purportedly from Gowdy. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/106 "2017-08-01T02:36:39Z")
I think the segregation of the military is a wholly different issue. African Americans have proven over and over again that they are equal or better to their white counterparts in enduring the physical stressors inherent in military service, especially in infantry units, the Marines, special forces, SEALS, Rangers, etc. In MY OPINION, anyone that’s transgendered AND can perform to the levels their job requires needs to be left alone. But will they be? I’m not so certain. But I served from 1988-1992 so that was awhile ago. Maybe things have changed. I do however happen to agree that military standards should NOT be changed for ANYONE. They’ve already afforded females lesser physical requirements and it doesn’t need to go further than that. I never once in this thread advocated for the banning or dismissal of gays/transgendered people from the military, but the fact remains that particularly in certain types of units, the stereotypical harm will befall them and there’s NOTHING anyone can do about it. Our death machine requires able bodies and consummate conformity to operate properly. That’s all I’ve been saying. Once again, to reiterate, I relayed an email that was supposed to be from a Congressperson that my old man sent me. Neither he nor I even conveyed a belief in those words, other than maybe to get people to realize that it’s a tough culture on anyone, let alone an openly gay or transgendered person. And the fact that there are certain roles that they would be extremely ill-fitted for. And for good reason. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/107 "2017-08-01T03:08:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > That’s all I’ve been saying. Once again, to reiterate, I relayed an email that was supposed to be from a Congressperson that my old man sent me. Neither he nor I even conveyed a belief in those words, other than maybe to get people to realize that it’s a tough culture on anyone, let alone an openly gay or transgendered person. And the fact that there are certain roles that they would be extremely ill-fitted for. And for good reason. I’m sorry but that’s quite clearly bullshit and I’m pretty sure you know it. Your dad didn’t forward you an email just for the fuck of it. He sent it because he agreed with it. And you aren’t just pointing out the obvious fact that it’s a tough culture. You are clearly suggesting that trans people will get beat up because they won’t cut it, like your Jordanian brother in arms. And “hey, waddya gonna do?” as your sum up. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/108 "2017-08-01T03:35:31Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I think the segregation of the military is a wholly different issue. African Americans have proven over and over again that they are equal or better to their white counterparts in enduring the physical stressors inherent in military service, especially in infantry units, the Marines, special forces, SEALS, Rangers, etc. In MY OPINION, anyone that’s transgendered AND can perform to the levels their job requires needs to be left alone. But will they be? I’m not so certain. But I served from 1988-1992 so that was awhile ago. Maybe things have changed. > > I do however happen to agree that military standards should NOT be changed for ANYONE. They’ve already afforded females lesser physical requirements and it doesn’t need to go further than that. I never once in this thread advocated for the banning or dismissal of gays/transgendered people from the military, but the fact remains that particularly in certain types of units, the stereotypical harm will befall them and there’s NOTHING anyone can do about it. Our death machine requires able bodies and consummate conformity to operate properly. > > That’s all I’ve been saying. Once again, to reiterate, I relayed an email that was supposed to be from a Congressperson that my old man sent me. Neither he nor I even conveyed a belief in those words, other than maybe to get people to realize that it’s a tough culture on anyone, let alone an openly gay or transgendered person. **And the fact that there are certain roles that they would be extremely ill-fitted for. And for good reason**. Bolding mine - What roles ? what good reasons? Lets get specific - what role or roles do you think “they” are ill fitted for and why? ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/109 "2017-08-01T04:50:29Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Bolding mine - > > What roles ? what good reasons? > > Lets get specific - what role or roles do you think “they” are ill fitted for and why? An _almost_ reasonable argument can be strung together with ductape and bubblegum if one tries to contend that units that are most likely to find themselves in positions where they can be captured should not contain such people, as they suffer a unique risk of torture and death against the enemies we’re most likely to face (fundamentalists). The same argument is floated for women and the much higher incidence of rape for female POWs. It doesn’t really hold water there, either, but it is at least a reasonable _factor_ to consider. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/110 "2017-08-01T10:51:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps it’s because, as one poster put it, transgender people “have a medical condition that needs treatment” and the military is free to disallow people who have medical conditions that need treatment from enlisting? That’s just false. Some transgender people need treatment. Plenty don’t. Plenty of transgender people don’t require any more medical treatment than cis/non-trans people (forgot if you were one of the ones who didn’t like “cis”) do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/111 "2017-08-01T10:57:39Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I think the segregation of the military is a wholly different issue. African Americans have proven over and over again that they are equal or better to their white counterparts in enduring the physical stressors inherent in military service, especially in infantry units, the Marines, special forces, SEALS, Rangers, etc. In MY OPINION, anyone that’s transgendered AND can perform to the levels their job requires needs to be left alone. But will they be? I’m not so certain. But I served from 1988-1992 so that was awhile ago. Maybe things have changed. > > I do however happen to agree that military standards should NOT be changed for ANYONE. They’ve already afforded females lesser physical requirements and it doesn’t need to go further than that. I never once in this thread advocated for the banning or dismissal of gays/transgendered people from the military, but the fact remains that particularly in certain types of units, the stereotypical harm will befall them and there’s NOTHING anyone can do about it. Our death machine requires able bodies and consummate conformity to operate properly. > > That’s all I’ve been saying. Once again, to reiterate, I relayed an email that was supposed to be from a Congressperson that my old man sent me. Neither he nor I even conveyed a belief in those words, other than maybe to get people to realize that it’s a tough culture on anyone, let alone an openly gay or transgendered person. And the fact that there are certain roles that they would be extremely ill-fitted for. And for good reason. There’s plenty that can be done about it – order the military to accept and tolerate trans people in their midst, and they’ll do it. That’s what happened with desegregating black people, women, and (more recently) gay people, and the military hasn’t suffered (it’s probably greatly improved). I served in the Navy (got out about 10 years ago) and there was a guy who was gay – it was an open secret, since this was before it would have been allowed – and he was good at his job, so no one cared beyond a few assholes who would say shit behind his back. Young military folks are supremely adaptable, and the most important quality is whether one can do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/112 "2017-08-01T13:19:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s just false. Some transgender people need treatment. Plenty don’t. Plenty of transgender people don’t require any more medical treatment than cis/non-trans people (forgot if you were one of the ones who didn’t like “cis”) do. Take it up with **Una**. That was her statement, not mine. Of course, if no treatment is necessary, then there is no reason not to let transgender people enlist. I’m not attached to the argument, it’s just one that I’ve seen that I have no clear answer for. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/113 "2017-08-01T13:22:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Take it up with **Una**. That was her statement, not mine. Of course, if no treatment is necessary, then there is no reason not to let transgender people enlist. > > I’m not attached to the argument, it’s just one that I’ve seen that I have no clear answer for. Sure there’s a clear answer – many trans people don’t require any more treatment than others. There’s no reason to ban them from the military, including anything about medical expenses. If the concern is really about medical expenses, then the issue would be handled through rules about medical expenses, not with a blanket ban of a category of people that includes many healthy folks who need no special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/114 "2017-08-01T13:35:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Take it up with **Una**. That was her statement, not mine. Of course, if no treatment is necessary, then there is no reason not to let transgender people enlist. > > I’m not attached to the argument, it’s just one that I’ve seen that I have no clear answer for. cite where \*\*una \*\*said all needed treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/115 "2017-08-01T14:18:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure there’s a clear answer – many trans people don’t require any more treatment than others. There’s no reason to ban them from the military, including anything about medical expenses. If the concern is really about medical expenses, then the issue would be handled through rules about medical expenses, not with a blanket ban of a category of people that includes many healthy folks who need no special treatment. At risk of you accusing me of advocating for a ban of transgender people from the military, that’s not really the argument that I’ve heard. I mean, I’ve heard the expenses argument, which is stupid. The argument is: The military already doesn’t allow people with some medical conditions to enlist. Why should they allow people with THIS medical condition to enlist? If you have something helpful that I can say as a response to this, then please, I’m all ears. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/116 "2017-08-01T14:19:50Z")
> [@simster](#): > > cite where \*\*una \*\*said all needed treatment? It’s in this thread. Find it yourself. I’ve already quoted it several times. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/117 "2017-08-01T14:43:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > At risk of you accusing me of advocating for a ban of transgender people from the military, that’s not really the argument that I’ve heard. I mean, I’ve heard the expenses argument, which is stupid. The argument is: The military already doesn’t allow people with some medical conditions to enlist. Why should they allow people with THIS medical condition to enlist? If you have something helpful that I can say as a response to this, then please, I’m all ears. Some medical conditions are more detrimental to serving in the military than others. Some would be prohibitively expensive for the military to cover. Being transgendered is not detrimental and not that expensive even when (if) getting therapy. ISTM, the argument is backwards. You need a reason WHY a certain medical condition goes on the ineligible list rather WHY NOT. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/118 "2017-08-01T14:46:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s in this thread. Find it yourself. I’ve already quoted it several times. The only thing in THIS thread is her ‘back of the napkin’ estimates for treatments - and in that list she specifically says its ‘worst case’ and even then qualifies that its ‘some percentage’ that seek treatment. In other threads she has clearly stated that not all seek treatment, etc - its very much an individual choice as to what/when etc. Every enlistee has ‘medical conditions’ - this is no worse/better than the others - I have yet to see any evidence that this ‘condition’ affects the person’s ability to do the job at hand. (unlike flat feet or a missing limb) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/119 "2017-08-01T15:10:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Some medical conditions are more detrimental to serving in the military than others. Some would be prohibitively expensive for the military to cover. Being transgendered is not detrimental and not that expensive even when (if) getting therapy. ISTM, the argument is backwards. You need a reason WHY a certain medical condition goes on the ineligible list rather WHY NOT. That’s a great answer, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184/120 "2017-08-01T15:13:47Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The only thing in THIS thread is her ‘back of the napkin’ estimates for treatments - and in that list she specifically says its ‘worst case’ and even then qualifies that its ‘some percentage’ that seek treatment Sorry, but the quote was “We have a medical condition that needs treatment” But whatever, it’s not important anyway, I have the answer I was looking for. > [@](#): > > Every enlistee has ‘medical conditions’ - this is no worse/better than the others - I have yet to see any evidence that this ‘condition’ affects the person’s ability to do the job at hand. (unlike flat feet or a missing limb) You know there are people with flat feet and missing limbs currently serving in the military? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-transgender-policy-for-the-military/792184.md?page=7)