# Trump's trial in NY for business fraud--why is there no jury? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [October 2, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999 "2023-10-02T11:40:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/1 "2023-10-02T11:40:27Z")
Google told me repeatedly that it’s a bench trial, but I couldn’t find why it’s a bench trial… So,(even though I’m sure it’s been discussed before,) will somebody please explain to me? It seems to me that in all of his upcoming trials, the facts are clearly not in his favor, so Trump’s best hope is to pray that the jury has one MAGA cult believer who refuses to look at the facts, and votes “not guilty”. I think all his other trials will be with juries…so why did he not demand a jury for this one too? It only takes one person to make a hung jury, and then Trump can shout that he was found innocent in court. Even if it’s not true–he will declare it in capital letters on his Truth Social tweets, and half the country will believe him. But since this is a bench trial, Trump won’t have that opportunity to re-claim his dignity. And since it’s likely to end with the dissolution of his companies, and total destruction of Trump’s entire image of being a successful billionaire, this trial is probably more important to him that the other trials. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/2 "2023-10-02T11:43:59Z")
The lawyer fucked up and forgot to check the “I would please like a jury trial box.” Seriously. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/MzfxmZELi3Y/maxresdefault.jpg "Trump Lawyer Makes BILLION DOLLAR MISTAKE before Trial") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzfxmZELi3Y) Medias Touch is incredibly biased but is solid on the facts they present. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/3 "2023-10-02T11:48:56Z")
My quotation mark above is clearly misplaced but I apparently can’t edit a post with embedded media. 🤷 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/4 "2023-10-02T12:17:25Z")
Does this create a legitimate claim regarding ineffective assistance of counsel? Obviously a party can _attempt_ any claim they want. In this specific circumstance, is the attorney’s oversight a plausible basis on which such an argument might be sustained? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/5 "2023-10-02T12:32:59Z")
It’s civil fraud. Ineffective assistance of counsel appeals are only available in criminal cases. My guess is that his attorneys decided his reputation in New York is now so shot that he has a better chance with a judge. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/6 "2023-10-02T12:36:15Z")
Ah, thank you, forgot that wrinkle. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/7 "2023-10-02T12:51:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > The lawyer fucked up and forgot to check the “I would please like a jury trial box.” > > Seriously. Following up on @Really_Not_All_That_Bright, is it that his lawyers “fucked up” or is it that they simply didn’t ask for a jury trial because they made a calculated decision that they’d stand a better chance in from of a New York judge than a New York jury? I don’t intend to watch the video. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/8 "2023-10-02T13:08:56Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Following up on @Really_Not_All_That_Bright, is it that his lawyers “fucked up” or is it that they simply didn’t ask for a jury trial because they made a calculated decision that they’d stand a better chance in from of a New York judge than a New York jury? One lawyer, who previously alleged that the classified documents found in Mar-A-Lago may have been planted by the FBI. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/01/politics/fact-check-trump-claims-fbi-search/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/01/politics/fact-check-trump-claims-fbi-search/index.html) And was sanctioned for a frivolous lawsuit against Hillary Clinton. > **[Judge sanctions Trump, Habba nearly $1 million for ‘completely frivolous’...](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/19/judge-sanctions-trump-habba-clinton-00078700)** > > The judge ordered Trump and Habba to pay $938,000 to cover the legal costs for the 31 defendants Trump linked in his year-old lawsuit. If I was handed any calculation from her, I’d check the math. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/9 "2023-10-02T13:31:11Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > lawyer He is also being represented by at least one other attorney in the civil fraud case, Christopher M. Kise. So, lawyers. None of which sheds light on whether the bench trial was due to a strategic decision, or an oversight. My understanding, by the way, is that it’s not especially uncommon for parties to opt for a bench trial where complex legal issues are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/10 "2023-10-02T13:32:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > He is also being represented by at least one other attorney in the civil fraud case, Christopher M. Kise. So, lawyers. [Habba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alina_Habba#Work_as_Trump_attorney) evidently is the one responsible for the lack of jury trial, though. > [@A Perfectly Reasonable Amount of Schadenfreude about Things Happening to Trump & His Enablers (Part 2)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-perfectly-reasonable-amount-of-schadenfreude-about-things-happening-to-trump-his-enablers-part-2/984250/1862): > > Trump attorney Alina Habba forgot to request a jury trial in the New York fraud case, so now it will be decided by the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/11 "2023-10-02T15:27:47Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Following up on @Really_Not_All_That_Bright, is it that his lawyers “fucked up” or is it that they simply didn’t ask for a jury trial because they made a calculated decision that they’d stand a better chance in from of a New York judge than a New York jury? The (generally rabidly “anti-Trump”) sources tend to suggest both that the bench trial “box” was checked _and_ that the jury demand was “too late.” I can’t easily find the docket sheet online (and state court dockets tend to be less readily available). If there was an untimely demand filed, then you can reasonably conclude that there was a mistake. If they simply didn’t demand a jury (or affirmatively waived a jury), I’m not sure you can draw an informed conclusion. A New York County jury pool is likely going to be less appealing than Florida or Georgia. Edit: Actually, I did find the docket [here](https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcivil/FCASSearch), but I can’t tell if anything was filed. The Answer does not include a jury demand. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/12 "2023-10-02T15:48:56Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > A New York County jury pool is likely going to be less appealing than Florida or Georgia. But it is still a pool–i.e. a group, not one individual person.An individual judge in N Y is almost certainly not a MAGA cultist. A group of 100 citizens in the jury pool will probably have a couple MAGATs, even in NY. Seems like the better choice.Two out of 100 is better than none. Are all of Trump’s lawyers so stupid? And how/why has Trump not shouted about it in tweets? “IT’s A Witch Hunt!!!They’re depriving me of a jury trial!!! IT’S RIGGED!!!I’ll come after them!!!LOCK UP the judge!!!” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/13 "2023-10-02T15:51:42Z")
This trial follows the judge’s ruling that he committed fraud, it’s been described as the penalty phase of this case. I would think at this part of the trial, determining the damages he’ll be ordered to pay, a New York jury would not be thinking of low numbers. Could the judge have made that initial ruling that pre-empted a trial on the question of fraud if Trump had asked for a jury trial? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/14 "2023-10-02T15:53:28Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But it is still a pool–i.e. a group, not one individual person.An individual judge in N Y is almost certainly not a MAGA cultist. A group of 100 citizens in the jury pool will probably have a couple MAGATs, even in NY. > Seems like the better choice.Two out of 100 is better than none. > .Are all of Trump’s lawyers so stupid? With the silly pejoratives, it doesn’t seem all that interesting to continue this. But deciding between a bench and jury trial is a complicated (and imperfect) art form. One obvious distinction is that a New York civil jury is 6 people and requires 5/6 jurors to find liability. Criminal juries are bigger and must be unanimous. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Could the judge have made that initial ruling that pre-empted a trial on the question of fraud if Trump had asked for a jury trial? The earlier ruling was on summary judgment. Which the court enters as a matter of law, because there are not disputed material facts. The court can do that without a jury, even in a jury case. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/15 "2023-10-02T19:38:54Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Edit: Actually, I did find the docket [here](https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcivil/FCASSearch), but I can’t tell if anything was filed. The Answer does not include a jury demand. Well, thanks for looking, but as you note while a late jury demand might well indicate an error by the legal team, absent such a smoking gun, it could just as easily, if not more easily, be that this was a strategic decision in a complicated case where the jury pool is unlikely to be favorable in any event. So I think we agree the mere absence of a jury demand by itself isn’t conclusive evidence of a mistake. Perhaps I’ll poke around after work. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/16 "2023-10-02T20:04:01Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > it could just as easily, if not more easily, be that this was a strategic decision I’m thinking a typical NYC jury “of his peers” would not include a lot of multi-multi-millionaires sympatheic to the idea of fudging numbers in the hundred-million range. His penthouse - alleged to be 30,000sf and actually “only” 11,000sf probably wouldn’t elicit jury sympathy either. And remember he had a full page ad calling for extreme punishment for the (eventaully exonerated) Central Park 5. I agree it was probably a strategic decision. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/17 "2023-10-02T20:09:29Z")
If you assume for the moment that judges and jury members vote the same way as people in New York City did in 2020 generally (i.e., 12.2% for Trump), the chance of a single judge being a Trump voter is of course 12.2% but the chance of at least two out of six jurors being Trump voters is about 40.7%. In reality, the jury pool is likely to break reasonably close to those numbers. However, judges are sure to lean much more Democratic than that in a very blue city in a very blue state. It seems to me that a trial by jury should have been a no-brainer and Trump’s lawyers made a mistake in going for a bench trial. Of course voting for Trump in an election three years ago doesn’t necessarily guarantee deciding for Trump in a trial today. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/18 "2023-10-02T20:20:58Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > It seems to me that a trial by jury should have been a no-brainer and Trump’s lawyers made a mistake in going for a bench trial. Possibly not - if I were his lawyer, I would be afraid that any pro-Trump people in the jury pool would reveal their bias during voir dire and get thrown out of the pool. And I said pro-Trump because how someone voted in 2020 doesn’t necessarily tell you how they will decide this case - but currently being pro-Trump probably does ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/19 "2023-10-02T20:30:32Z")
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but I make it about 46% chance of there being no Trump voters on a jury of six chosen at random and 38% chance of there being exactly one, so only 16% chance of there being two or more. Still it might be better than a random NY judge. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/20 "2023-10-02T20:51:10Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > If you assume for the moment that judges and jury members vote the same way as people in New York City did in 2020 generally (i.e., 12.2% for Trump), the chance of a single judge being a Trump voter is of course 12.2% but the chance of at least two out of six jurors being Trump voters is about 40.7%. But a judge is (presumably, in theory) going to be less likely to disregard the law. So it’s not just a straight probability of bias, but specifically of bias plus _susceptibility to_ bias. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999.md?page=2)