# Trump's trial in NY for business fraud--why is there no jury? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [October 2, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999 "2023-10-02T11:40:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/21 "2023-10-02T21:35:55Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > However, judges are sure to lean much more Democratic than that in a very blue city in a very blue state. It seems to me that a trial by jury should have been a no-brainer and Trump’s lawyers made a mistake in going for a bench trial. You might assume that a judge is going to be less likely to decide this case based on his opinion of Trump as a candidate, or president, or person and more likely to decide it based on the evidence and the law. You’d certainly _like_ to think that neither a judge nor a juror’s opinion on the case would be determined based on that person’s partisan affiliation, but I’d generally feel more confident hoping that from a judge. (Unsympathetic defendants often elect bench trials precisely for that reason, apart from any partisan concerns). And, of course, a judge’s findings of fact are more susceptible to review on appeal. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/22 "2023-10-02T22:11:32Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > the chance of at least two out of six jurors being Trump voters is about 40.7%. > [@doreen](#): > > if I were his lawyer, I would be afraid that any pro-Trump people in the jury pool would reveal their bias during voir dire and get thrown out of the pool I’m trying to imageine what class of people in NYC vote Republican, generally. Would they be challenged during jury selection as being identifiable by the colour of their silk tie? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/23 "2023-10-02T22:42:16Z")
Business Insider article says that the plaintiff (NY AG) clearly ticked the box saying that they wanted a bench trial, and embeds that form in their article. Trump and his lawyer on this file, Alina Habba, both said they wanted a jury trial. To get one, they would have had to file a request for one, or else the plaintiff’s choice governed. The article said that Trump wouldn’t have been guaranteed a jury trial for this type of case, but they had to ask for it. They didn’t. > **[Trump isn't getting a jury in his $250 million civil fraud trial because his...](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-no-jury-bench-trial-ny-fraud-case-paperwork-2023-10)** > > Former President Donald Trump is getting a three-month bench trial solely decided by a judge he's repeatedly attacked. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/24 "2023-10-02T23:04:04Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > I’m trying to imageine what class of people in NYC vote Republican, generally. Would they be challenged during jury selection as being identifiable by the colour of their silk tie? I can only speak about the ones I am acquainted with - and they do not wear silk ties. They only wear ties for weddings and _maybe_ funerals. Think Archie Bunker and you will be pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/25 "2023-10-02T23:24:25Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I can only speak about the ones I am acquainted with - and they do not wear silk ties. Neither do the Trump voters in Borough Park and Crown Heights… ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/26 "2023-10-02T23:31:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > To get one, they would have had to file a request for one, or else the plaintiff’s choice governed. The article said that Trump wouldn’t have been guaranteed a jury trial for this type of case, but they had to ask for it. > > They didn’t. Well, there it is. (100 points for the find, plus 5 points bonus points if you get the reference) Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/27 "2023-10-02T23:44:13Z")
If this were a Mafia movie, a good reason to not choose a jury is because the judge is bought and paid for. I don’t think that’s what happened here, just getting the thought out of my head. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/28 "2023-10-03T00:53:03Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > So I think we agree the mere absence of a jury demand by itself isn’t conclusive evidence of a mistake. Perhaps I’ll poke around after work. It’s being [widely reported](https://www.yahoo.com/news/mind-blowing-legal-experts-warn-171808012.html) as a strategic blunder: > [@](#): > > # “Mind-blowing”: Legal experts warn that lawyer’s incredible “screw-up” is “very ominous” for Trump > [@](#): > > Legal experts were stunned by the revelation, characterizing it as a blunder by the former president’s lawyers. “So Alina Habba didn’t demand a jury trial?!” [wrote](https://twitter.com/KatiePhang/status/1708861432199049719) MSNBC legal analyst Katie Phang. “I wonder how Trump feels about this screw-up by his legal team.” Former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman called the decision “mind-blowing.” > > “For Trump to have his fate in the hands of this judge, whom he has vilified, is malpractice by his lawyers and very ominous for him,” Litman [wrote on X](https://twitter.com/harrylitman/status/1708857002259300729), formerly Twitter. “It’s incredibly easy to ask for a jury trial. You just check a box on a form. Hard to believe that Trump understood that his lawyers hadn’t done it when he’s been savaging the judge who is now the factfinder in his huge fraud trial,” [he added](https://twitter.com/harrylitman/status/1708862304182550716). “I honestly can’t believe that any lawyer hired on such an important case could make this mistake,” [wrote](https://twitter.com/ASFleischman/status/1708887413529923619) defense attorney Andrew Fleischman. “But I also can’t think of any strategic reason you’d want a bench trial in front of a judge who just sanctioned your lawyers for making frivolous arguments.” So maybe I was intentional, but just really stupid? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/29 "2023-10-03T01:00:20Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > If this were a Mafia movie, a good reason to not choose a jury is because the judge is bought and paid for. I don’t think that’s what happened here… Certainly not with the amount of money Trump _actually_ has at his disposal (hence the fraud trial, if you catch my drift). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/30 "2023-10-03T01:42:21Z")
As I mentioned earlier, I saw an article that said that even if his lawyer had asked for a jury trial, the judge might not have granted it. I found the reference, referring to a statement the judge made today: > [@](#): > > The non-jury trial concerns six remaining claims in the lawsuit, including allegations of conspiracy, insurance fraud and falsifying business records. Engoron said that neither side sought a jury and that **state law doesn’t allow for juries when suits seek not only money but a court order setting out something a defendant must do or not do.** That sounds like the old distinction between law and equity. There were juries in common law matters, where you got a verdict for a monetary amount. There were no juries in equity cases, where you were asking the judge to issue an order, like an injunction. I don’t know about NY law, but the 7th Amendment to the US Constitution preserves the right to a civil jury in “suits at common law” but not equity, which sounds like the same idea. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/31 "2023-10-03T01:48:35Z")
That would make sense. But I thought the way it worked, when there were overlapping claims in equity and law, was that the claims at law would be decided by a jury, and then the claims in equity would be decided by a judge, but with the judge bound by the jury’s factual findings to the extent the legal and equitable claims overlapped. Or maybe that’s just a general rule, and NY state has something different. Not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/32 "2023-10-03T02:18:03Z")
Could be; I dunno. Forgot to include the story with that paragraph: > **[Trump seethes through the start of trial in New York lawsuit accusing him of...](https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/trump-seethes-through-the-start-of-trial-in-new-york-lawsuit-accusing-him-of-lying-about-his-wealth-1.6585604)** > > Aggrieved and defiant, former U.S. president Donald Trump sat through hours of sometimes testy opening statements Monday in a fraud lawsuit that could cost him control of Trump Tower and other prized properties. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/33 "2023-10-03T02:20:48Z")
Asking for a jury trial didn’t help in the Carroll case. And that required a unanimous verdict. As for TV experts saying not asking for a bench trial was a tremendous error, are TV experts real experts? I don’t know — just asking questions 😉 Off the top of my head — a jury is unpredictable. There’s risk of a much higher money amount verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/34 "2023-10-03T03:01:30Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > There’s risk of a much higher money amount verdict. I wondered about this - could there have been a strategic decision by Trump that a bench trial might carry a slightly higher risk of a finding against him, but also likely result in a less emotionally based damages award? ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/35 "2023-10-03T03:24:04Z")
Would it have been open for a jury, if one had been empanelled, to recommend much higher damages, and punitively so if they got a straight flush of anti-Trumper jurors? Something in the order of $2 billion jillion, or are such damages capped? ---
**Author:** ![bryanmaguire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d07c76/32.png) [@bryanmaguire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryanmaguire)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/36 "2023-10-03T08:02:12Z")
His lawyer is now claiming that they didnt have the option of a jury trial. She says the charges fall under consumer law so it has to be a bench trial. I am not qualified to know if she is correct but perhaps somebody here is [https://www.mediaite.com/tv/alina-habba-denies-trumps-failure-to-get-jury-was-her-fault-thats-not-how-this-works/](https://www.mediaite.com/tv/alina-habba-denies-trumps-failure-to-get-jury-was-her-fault-thats-not-how-this-works/) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/37 "2023-10-03T08:57:26Z")
Tangent, but is there constitutional precedent for a lawyer’s actions overriding his client’s wishes? Can a judge say, _“Even though you, the defendant, (Trump) have the Constitutional right to a jury, your lawyer made a clerical error waiving that right, and I’m going to give greater weight to your lawyer’s actions than to your own preference and wishes?”_ That sounds…troubling. Imagine if it were applied in any other scenario - say, Trump wants to use his Constitutional right to confront his accusers in court, but his lawyer files a written statement “Let’s not let Trump do so” and so Trump gets denied the right. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/38 "2023-10-03T10:14:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That sounds…troubling. It’s a civil trial. For a criminal trial, it appears that NY requires the waiving of a jury to be made on the court record, in person, by the defendant, who is also required to sign a document which becomes an Exhibit in the trial. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/39 "2023-10-03T12:31:25Z")
I think it was the legal analyst on the Rachel Maddow show - said (as others have mentioned) because the trial involves not just monetary rewards but sanctions, that it must go to a judge not a jury. Sanctions include loss of business licenses, barring the persons from doing business in the state in future and clawing back the profits from the illegal activity(!) as well as the fines for illegal behaviour. That needs to be determined by a judge. > [@doreen](#): > > I can only speak about the ones I am acquainted with - and they do not wear silk ties. They only wear ties for weddings and _maybe_ funerals. Think Archie Bunker and you will be pretty close. But that depends - I wonder whether the jury pool is Manhattan or all of NYC? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999/40 "2023-10-03T12:42:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That sounds…troubling. It sure does. A lot about the legal system is troubling. But what’s least troubling is with (purportedly, but TBD) wealthy clients who can actually afford legal representation choosing… poorly. I’ll save my pity for the people who can’t afford representation being evicted from their homes after paying someone else’s mortgage for 20 years, because they don’t know how to defend themselves and the judge is more interested in administrative efficiency than justice or fairness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-trial-in-ny-for-business-fraud-why-is-there-no-jury/990999.md?page=3)