# Trump's Wall 15 to 20 billion. Can we do it better and cheaper? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 26, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243 "2017-01-26T18:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/21 "2017-01-26T19:34:40Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The US needs its own construction department that doesn’t depend on bids from private contractors. Much like the State Highway Departments do their own work. Like stated above, in my state jobs are bid out and private companies build highways and bridges and other “state” infrastructure. As for labor costs, Davis and Bacon probably want to have a word with you… ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/22 "2017-01-26T19:37:25Z")
Have we considered using barbed wire and landmines instead of a wall? Rigging up a truck to deploy miles of multiple layers of barbed wire doesn’t sound too hard. Landmines can cost as little as $.8 each if you get them in bulk. And there are already vehicle attachments that can spread them around randomly. Once you abandon all compassion the money saving possibilities are truly endless. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/23 "2017-01-26T19:41:13Z")
The expensive part of any wall is the manpower required to guard and patrol it. But if you have adequate manpower guarding and patrolling the border, you don’t need a wall. So the cheapest way to build a way is to just hire dudes to patrol the border and forgo the wall itself entirely. It will still cost billions of dollars, every year, but minus the comparatively small $15-20B upfront cost. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/24 "2017-01-26T19:42:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > IHMO, I think $15 billion is an underestimate. And no, I don’t think we can roll up our shirt sleeves and get it done for cheaper. > You’re talking about building a wall over vast expanses of territory that include mountains, valleys, and huge stretches where there are no roads to truck in materials. This is logistically a very, very big undertaking. > > And I’m not even getting into the legal issues of right-of-way and building on private property. And that’s not allowing for Trump’s cut–which he _will_ expect. Those numbered Swiss bank accounts don’t fill themselves! (_Any_ project undertaken during the Trump Administration will have to budget in the graft, or the project won’t happen.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/25 "2017-01-26T19:46:41Z")
Can’t we just send Trump a photo of The Great Wall of China with “Mission Accomplished!!” scrawled on the back, and spend the money on a BBQ? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/26 "2017-01-26T19:48:39Z")
Dig a moat instead, then stock it with sharks. With fricken’ lasers on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/27 "2017-01-26T19:53:09Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Like stated above, in my state jobs are bid out and private companies build highways and bridges and other “state” infrastructure. > > As for labor costs, Davis and Bacon probably want to have a word with you… I guess it varies state by state and depends on the job. A private firm is replacing a critical bridge that links Little Rock and North Little Rock. They have a contract with severe penalties if they don’t meet their completion date. So far, they are on schedule. State highway 167 used to be 2 lanes. They widened most of it to 4 lanes. Including several new bridges. The bridges might be private bids. I don’t know. I see the guys out there in State Highway Dept vests frequently working on various projects. All the heavy construction machinery has Arkansas Highway Dept stenciled on it. The government can build basic infrastructure. The CCC proved that only 80 years ago. Whether we have the National will to do it again is the question. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/28 "2017-01-26T19:57:43Z")
[List](http://www.arkansashighways.com/ProgCon/General/JOBS_include.aspx) of Arkansas highway projects up for bid by private contractors. It ain’t just bridges. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/29 "2017-01-26T20:02:36Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I’m puzzled. Don’t we have a wall already? A fence? Guard dogs? Land mines? As I understand from a radio report I recently half-paid attention to, significant portions of the border do not have any fence or wall, because the natural mountainous terrain already discourages people from crossing. To erect a fence or wall there would require building roads to allow the vehicles and equipment in, which could end up making it easier for drug and human traffickers to cross in those areas. The idea sounds sufficiently farcical and counterproductive that I’m confident the president will insist on it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/30 "2017-01-26T20:02:46Z")
I guess they’ve changed policy. I know the highway Dept. used to do a lot of their own work. But who really knows if the guys wearing the safety vests are state employees or private? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/31 "2017-01-26T20:04:34Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Dig a moat instead, then stock it with sharks. With fricken’ lasers on their heads. Good idea. 900 miles of that “moat” have already been conveniently [built by nature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/32 "2017-01-26T20:27:45Z")
Looking at Google Maps, the Rio Grande has moved since some a survey, and the US owns parts on the Mexican side, and Mexico Parts of the US side. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/33 "2017-01-26T20:29:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I guess they’ve changed policy. I know the highway Dept. used to do a lot of their own work. But who really knows if the guys wearing the safety vests are state employees or private? Here in Illinois, they’re private unless it’s minor stuff like filling potholes or cracks. I know because the company I worked for bid subcontract work for the major companies that did the actual highway building. Some of your assumptions don’t really work: – The GOP doesn’t want a federal construction company as that goes against the whole “Private enterprise is always the answer” mantra. – You can’t just arbitrarily exclude areas to make it cheaper. The whole point of this wall is that it goes coast to coast. We already have fences and natural barriers but we’re working on the assumption that this wall is needed, i.e. those aren’t cutting it. – What good is a massive education program for unskilled laborers that you’re paying to do unskilled labor? You create an education program for skilled labor. If we’re working under the assumption that this wall is mainly unskilled work then there isn’t much to teach them that’ll put them ahead of the next ditch-digger in the market. – Conversely, we shouldn’t be teaching people to be supervisors and project managers through this. This is the most costly single\* infrastructure program in our nation’s history, not the place for on-the-job training for novices. (Bumped to the #2 spot will be Boston’s Big Dig and we see how well that went). - I exclude the interstate system which was a bunch of smaller projects all linked together. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/34 "2017-01-26T20:31:15Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Good idea. 900 miles of that “moat” have already been conveniently [built by nature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande). Shouldn’t have to be that long to surround Trump. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/35 "2017-01-26T20:36:28Z")
Then I would think that contractors will make most of the money, charge more for building it and hire temporary low wage labor. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/36 "2017-01-26T21:21:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > IHMO, I think $15 billion is an underestimate. And no, I don’t think we can roll up our shirt sleeves and get it done for cheaper. > > You’re talking about building a wall over vast expanses of territory that include mountains, valleys, and huge stretches where there are no roads to truck in materials. This is logistically a very, very big undertaking. > > And I’m not even getting into the legal issues of right-of-way and building on private property. > > If I were to build the wall, I’d take the cost estimate and add 25% to it, because it’s perfectly obvious that this is going to be a bigly project. This, exactly. Unless you’ve actually ever been to the border and the states on that border it’s hard to understand. It’s vast empty desert in a lot of it, or mountainous in others. There isn’t a lot of road infrastructure for a large part of it, so logistically it would be a bitch. Couple that with the fact that it’s not a neat, even border and that there are a lot of different people, groups, tribes and even agencies who control the land…some of which would be very resistant to having the government simply snatch it by fiat. I think even the $20 billion price tag is going to be way under what the end cost would be, even if we assume the US government could simply grab the land without a fight and do what they want too as if we were the CCP. So, leaving aside how wise it is to build it, I don’t think there is any way to game the project to cut costs based on the parameters being given. You COULD probably cut costs if you made the wall less robust and out of cheaper materials, if you use magic fiat powers to grab the land without a fight, perhaps use captive labor (prison labor, maybe, or round up all the illegals and give them a shovel or something)…maybe you could cut the costs in half by doing that (how you’d do it in 4 years still begs the question though). But given the parameters they are talking about, the length of the wall and the actual terrain it will be going through? I think if they could actually build the stupid thing for $20 billion it would be an engineering miracle. My WAG is, if we are so stupid as to try we are talking north of $30 billion…maybe north of $40 billion. And it would take longer than Trump has… ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/37 "2017-01-26T21:38:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I see the border wall as a reason to initiate a government construction program. The CCC should have never been stopped. WWII needed the men and that took priority. > > There’s been several documentenries on the crumbling US infrastructure. I can’t see private construction meeting the need at a reasonable cost. By definition, private construction wants to make a profit. They look for ways to cut corners and costs. Then the suppliers look for ways to cut costs. > > That’s why states employ their own highway Dept crews. How does building a new wall address crumbling infrastructure? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/38 "2017-01-26T21:41:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > How does building a new wall address crumbling infrastructure? Quick! Look over there! Shiny! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/39 "2017-01-26T21:44:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This, exactly. Unless you’ve actually ever been to the border and the states on that border it’s hard to understand. It’s vast empty desert in a lot of it, or mountainous in others Not to mention [a river that can change course](http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/26/world/a-liquid-border-pays-no-heed-to-diplomacy.html). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243/40 "2017-01-26T21:46:57Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > How does building a new wall address crumbling infrastructure? Make the wall just a wee bit wider, and we drive on top of it-Win/win! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-15-to-20-billion-can-we-do-it-better-and-cheaper/778243.md?page=3)