# Trump's wall is now a 50 mile fence **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 22, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906 "2017-07-22T22:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/21 "2017-07-23T19:40:25Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There are more than just diehards and detractors, though. The diehards are a lost cause. It’s the reluctant voters that would be the target of pointing out Trump lied about even the few things they actually supported him for. But, again, that’s really only great as part of a one-two punch, isn’t it? Say I tell you Trump lied about something you supported him for; and say I add that my candidate will deliver what Trump only promised you. And, man, that’s a _terrific_ little sales pitch. But if I say that Trump didn’t deliver everything you wanted; and then, right when your eyes light up as you hope for a ray of sunshine to come slanting into that sewer, I add that _my candidate won’t deliver it either?_ A voter like that can still get won over, but it’s not exactly a slam dunk. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/22 "2017-07-23T20:30:53Z")
The real key here, as \*\*Waldo \*\*\*almost \*said just above is that Trump hasn’t promised things that, if actually delivered, will make America great. Instead he’s promised things that he (and others e.g. Fox) have persuaded a bunch of people will make America great. As long as some/most of those things are delivered, or loudly claimed to be delivered, that will be enough to satisfy many of those people. Even if actual factual Greatness doesn’t follow. Said another way, folks have confused unrelated symptoms for the actual disease and will be satisfied with some unrelated symptomatic relief that does nothing for their disease. As well, this arrangement means that if America doesn’t become Great (good bet) and some things remain undelivered (even better bet), he’s got a perfect excuse for why that failed so far. And an easy road to claim “I just need 4 more years to overcome entrenched interests”. So the way to win against that is to first persuade that audience that a completely different laundry list of things will instead lead to American greatness. Even better if that list is honest and accurate rather than being simply an alternate brand of bullshit. And then convince them that Your Team, not the Other Guys, can actually deliver this new and better list. Good luck with this particular two-fer. That first step is a very tall order. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/23 "2017-07-24T01:37:33Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The real key here, as \*\*Waldo \*\*\*almost \*said just above is that Trump hasn’t promised things that, if actually delivered, will make America great. > > Instead he’s promised things that he (and others e.g. Fox) have persuaded a bunch of people will make America great. > > As long as some/most of those things are delivered, or loudly claimed to be delivered, that will be enough to satisfy many of those people. Even if actual factual Greatness doesn’t follow. > > Said another way, folks have confused unrelated symptoms for the actual disease and will be satisfied with some unrelated symptomatic relief that does nothing for their disease. > As well, this arrangement means that if America doesn’t become Great (good bet) and some things remain undelivered (even better bet), he’s got a perfect excuse for why that failed so far. And an easy road to claim “I just need 4 more years to overcome entrenched interests”. > > So the way to win against that is to first persuade that audience that a completely different laundry list of things will instead lead to American greatness. Even better if that list is honest and accurate rather than being simply an alternate brand of bullshit. > > And then convince them that Your Team, not the Other Guys, can actually deliver this new and better list. > > Good luck with this particular two-fer. That first step is a very tall order. A very good point of view. Unfortunately I agree with the last as well… Although Sen. Schumer said some interesting things this weekend. Tentative, but at least the leadership is starting to think. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/24 "2017-07-24T19:56:55Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > More than that, they need to stop letting the opposition frame the debate. Take health care, for example. > > The Republican position ( even though they don’t say it ) is that government spending for healthcare is an entitlement, income redistribution, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. And entitlements are bad and communistic and UnAmerican. > > And the Democrats play right into this hand, their message seems to be - yes, we need this entitlement program, this income redistribution, because otherwise Edna Smith of Boise can’t afford her chemo. Etc, etc. > > But nothing about healthcare being an investment in society. Nothing about how communities are hurt when they have a preponderance of unhealthy citizens. Nothing about how a healthier population is vastly more productive. Nothing about all the job opportunities in the healthcare sector. Nothing about how other sectors of the economy would be enriched if people weren’t spending every spare nickel on healthcare. > > Yes, it’s a messaging problem and sometimes I wish I could slap them. Agree wholeheartedly. That was how public education was always sold and is now being sold out as not worth it. And what about infrastructure. The Dems can certainly criticize Trump has given up on that. It is about both jobs and positive improvements. ---
**Author:** ![U900](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ba9def/32.png) [@U900](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/U900)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/25 "2017-07-25T08:21:04Z")
don’t hate the playa ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/26 "2017-07-25T08:33:09Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > More than that, they need to stop letting the opposition frame the debate. Take health care, for example. > > The Republican position ( even though they don’t say it ) is that government spending for healthcare is an entitlement, income redistribution, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. And entitlements are bad and communistic and UnAmerican. > > And the Democrats play right into this hand, their message seems to be - yes, we need this entitlement program, this income redistribution, because otherwise Edna Smith of Boise can’t afford her chemo. Etc, etc. > > But nothing about healthcare being an investment in society. Nothing about how communities are hurt when they have a preponderance of unhealthy citizens. Nothing about how a healthier population is vastly more productive. Nothing about all the job opportunities in the healthcare sector. Nothing about how other sectors of the economy would be enriched if people weren’t spending every spare nickel on healthcare. Actually they need to play it two ways. It’s that old thing about people (and Americans in particular) being idealogically conservative but operationally liberal. They need the operational sell to appeal to liberals, and the idealogical sell to appeal to conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906/27 "2017-07-25T12:11:36Z")
They also somehow need to break the entrenched belief that a middle- or working class white American has more in common with a white billionaire than they do with a black or brown middle- or working-class American. There’s a huge well-funded industry pushing that view. The Ds need to give that lie the airing out it deserves in a way that’s not about raising the black/brown folks, but rather about raising all the folks. The perception, as well as most of the reality under current policy, is that life amongst the middle and lower classes truly \*is \*a zero-sum game. At which point it’s pretty easy for even a non-racist to believe that any benefit to some other middle/working class person is going to come out of their pocket regardless of the rhetoric. Break that cycle, both the reailty and the perception, and the Ds might get somewhere. If not, not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-wall-is-now-a-50-mile-fence/791906.md?page=1)