# trying not to die \[supporting weight of van with hay to drop fuel tank\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 7, 2017, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214 "2017-02-07T07:03:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/21 "2017-02-07T21:59:09Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Got it, mud is an issue. I was just thinking about how OSHA defines a trench and requires a trenchbox only if it is deeper than [five feet](https://www.osha.gov/Publications/trench_excavation_fs.html). If the trench is shallow, do we still have a problem? If you’re lying down in a shallow trench (say, 1’ deep) under the open sky, sure, that sounds like no problem; in the unlikely event of a collapse, the soil probably wouldn’t even cover your body, and even if it did, you could claw your way out without trouble. Now park a van over your body, with its weight borne on the edges of the trench. A collapse is more likely, and you’re more likely to be trapped (and possibly crushed) by the van. Is there really no pavement or firm ground anywhere nearby that will reliably bear the weight of jackstands or ramps? ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/22 "2017-02-07T22:00:01Z")
IANAEOFC (I am not an engineer or fire chief), but two people who I know who are one or the other say that if the trench is over your waist, it needs to be shored. The problem isn’t in being “buried alive” … it is in having your chest caved in by the dirt. You can die, even if your shoulders are out of the hole. Apparently, every time you inhale, the dirt pushes in and you can’t exhale. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/23 "2017-02-07T22:02:28Z")
ETA: ninja’d in turn by **Machine Elf**. We’re even. 🙂 OSHA’s standards don’t factor in having the car partly fall in the trench with you. IMO they’re implicitly considering an open sky situation where the work is happening at the bottom, not overhead. Still you’re 100% right that by the low standards of farmyard engineering a trench is probably better than hay bales. I also recall a particularly memorable Darwin Award where a guy used a scissor jack in his garage to lift his car. He had a nice level concrete floor and everything, so this shoulda been a routine job. His only mistake was that after the jack proved too short to get enough lift he couldn’t find a good stout block to put under it. So he substituted what he had: a car battery. Which duly burst under the load while he was under the car. Spraying his face with acid, followed by the still hot and very heavy car sitting on his torso UFN. A closed-casket funeral was much in order. Gravity will make you its bitch any time you give it an opening. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/24 "2017-02-08T00:17:30Z")
[http://www.yourhome.gov.au/materials/straw-bale](http://www.yourhome.gov.au/materials/straw-bale) > [@Australian Government](#): > > Straw has been used as a building material for centuries for thatch roofing and also mixed with earth in cob and wattle and daub walls. Straw bales were first used for building over a century ago by settlers in Nebraska, USA, shortly after the invention of baling machines. […]The Australian straw bales suitable for domestic construction have two strings (American how-to books often show three-string bales) and are typically 900mm long x 450mm wide x 350–400mm high, and weigh 16–20kg. Agribusiness produces large round straw bales that are no use for building purposes but rectangular ‘jumbo bales’ are available (2,400mm x 1,200mm x 1,200mm) which can be used for large structures and require mechanical lifting. […]The structural capability of straw bales is surprisingly good. In the loadbearing (‘Nebraska’ style) strawbale method, walls of up to three storeys have been constructed. Most strawbale construction uses a frame of timber or steel for the building structure to comply with the Building Code of Australia (BCA) (see Construction systems). > There are many examples of multi-storey buildings in framed strawbale construction. I’ve never seen them stacked three stories high, but they were stacked two stories high in the sheds. They certainly won’t have any trouble taking the weight - they can reliably take about a ton each… Still, for some reason my parents never used to let me make tunnels in the hay shed, and they knew more about farming than I did. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/25 "2017-02-08T03:37:12Z")
I’d use the backhoe to tow the van to solid concrete and then put the van on jackstands. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/26 "2017-02-08T16:38:54Z")
If the van is to be saved, do it right. If the van is a parts van, roll on it side or almost with hay bales keeping from messing the side and just stand there and do it as said up thread. Don’t need to move it. ← is my vote if anyone is keeping track. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/27 "2017-02-08T17:20:10Z")
Surely anyone who owns a back-hoe is in fairly close proximity to someone who owns a mechanic’s pit? Admittedly I live in town, and in a 3rd world city, and I don’t know anyone who owns a back-hoe, but I can easily locate at least 3 or 4 pits within 1km of where I am now, and a similar number of establishments that have a commercial grade lift. ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/28 "2017-02-08T17:46:22Z")
Living on a farm, I think, “What would I do?” in this situation. During el Nino two years ago, it was rare that we ever had any dry ground. For around 20 months. I used lots of cribbing- Oak boards stacked, then jacks placed on top. Then more boards with jack stands (And the jack(s) still in place) We bale hay very tightly (To the point where it is quite difficult to get your fingers under the string), and never once would I have considered using any of them to support the weight of a car, or anything, really. One string breaks… I would slap a chain on the van, and get a buddy to pull me somewhere less muddy (I’m guessing that he is replacing the fuel pump, and the van will not run). But no, don’t use hay for crissakes. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/29 "2017-02-08T18:15:15Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I also recall a particularly memorable Darwin Award where a guy used a scissor jack in his garage to lift his car. He had a nice level concrete floor and everything, so this shoulda been a routine job. His only mistake was that after the jack proved too short to get enough lift he couldn’t find a good stout block to put under it. > > So he substituted what he had: a car battery. Which duly burst under the load while he was under the car. Spraying his face with acid, followed by the still hot and very heavy car sitting on his torso UFN. A closed-casket funeral was much in order. > > Gravity will make you its bitch any time you give it an opening. What does UFN stand for? Until Further Notice? Ultimate Fight Night? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/30 "2017-02-08T18:23:14Z")
Until further notice. Sorry; that’s bog-standard US bureaucratese, I assumed everybody knew it. The car sat there on the guy’s chest until he was found a day or so later. Which for him was long enough to equal eternity. ---
**Author:** ![SpeedwayRyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@SpeedwayRyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeedwayRyan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/31 "2017-02-10T04:36:59Z")
If you HAVE to do this, I’d use the backhoe to support the weight of the van and then stack the haybales to prevent the van from falling at all if the backhoe fails. Then you have two means of failure before you die – the backhoe has to fail and then the haybales have to fail. If you lower the van onto the haybales completly, you’re only one means of failure away from dying. Or you could drop the van onto the haybales and then just barely put the backhoe in place. Something to ensure that one method is there to save your ass when the other fails. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/32 "2017-02-10T04:44:32Z")
Oh, and bring a friend. With a cellphone. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/33 "2017-02-10T07:11:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Did I mention the jackstands were standing on gravel? jackstands have a stable zone of lean. As long as they don’t lean over so far that straight down goes outside the rotation point… Also gravel is as hard as concrete in many respects. Was it in fact purpose installed macadam ? macadam is the name for man made very very hard and strong gravel… (as long as it doesn’t rain). Tarmac is macadam sealed with tar on top… so it doesn’t go pear shaped when it rains. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/34 "2017-02-10T07:14:08Z")
The OP can use many other things to hold up the vehicle. I am not sure why he doesn’t just move it to somewhere more sensible… but if it must be done there… various vehicles wheels (the rim part) form a strong structure… they also have a large surface area . But if he has the machine and the hay, why doesn’t he just bring logs or bricks or steel drums or something else like that… ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/35 "2017-02-10T08:16:05Z")
I fear the OP may already be pressed into bricks. He already had the mud and the straw ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/36 "2017-02-10T08:20:15Z")
I fear the OP may already be pressed into bricks. He already had the mud and the straw ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/37 "2017-02-10T10:43:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Until further notice. Sorry; that’s bog-standard US bureaucratese, I assumed everybody knew it. > > The car sat there on the guy’s chest until he was found a day or so later. Which for him was long enough to equal eternity. Oh. I liked it better when I thought it was “UnderFuckingNeath.” Maybe **shuttupdad** couldn’t wait the 4 hours it took for a first response. Hope it’s not déjà vu :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/38 "2017-02-10T12:09:39Z")
> [@Spit](#): > > We bale hay very tightly (To the point where it is quite difficult to get your fingers under the string), and never once would I have considered using any of them to support the weight of a car, or anything, really. One string breaks… Your bales must be impressively heavy. Well done. Not that I’d want to be on a sledge stacking them. 😃 Don’t know. Hay bales are very strong and if the OP used three under each end then that would an acceptable risk. Particularly if the hay is new. I had a similar problem once and straddled the car across a concrete street gutter. The footpath was quite high above the road with a deep gutter. Awkward but it worked. ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/39 "2017-02-10T16:05:28Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Your bales must be impressively heavy. Well done. Not that I’d want to be on a sledge stacking them. 😃 > > Don’t know. Hay bales are very strong and if the OP used three under each end then that would an acceptable risk. Particularly if the hay is new. > > I had a similar problem once and straddled the car across a concrete street gutter. The footpath was quite high above the road with a deep gutter. Awkward but it worked. We use a 1961 MF #10. You can REALLY pack them tight with it. Each is just a shade under 100lbs. Makes for fewer trips on those 92% humidity July days in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214/40 "2017-02-10T16:15:05Z")
I would not trust my life on a bale of hay. If it were to pop, compress at the point of contact, or many other things it would be ugly. A bale of hay can stand considerable weight. That is why it can be stacked high. But in stacking the hay the weight is distrubted evenly over the bail. Have you ever seen a stack of hay that had a bale fail in the middle or bottom? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trying-not-to-die-supporting-weight-of-van-with-hay-to-drop-fuel-tank/779214.md?page=3)