Trying to buy a used car from a dealer. Are they insane or off or just me?

Factual Questions
21

A billion years ago I needed to buy a new family car. I knew the make and model (Toyota Corolla) as well as the trim package. It was the end of December and I heard that dealerships were eager to move cars.

I dedicated one Sunday to the process. There were three Toyota dealers near me, so I went to each one. I told the salesman I wanted to buy a car that day. No test drive needed, I just wanted a price. Whoever gave me the best price for what I wanted would make the sale.

The first guy told me that wasn’t how they did business. I stood up and left but he came after me and eventually decided to play the game. Same thing at the second dealership. The guy wanted to talk financing and I told him I wasn’t interested. He eventually gave me a number. At the third place the guy was actually psyched. He’d sold a few cars that day already and he was certain he could sell me one. He told me the price and I said no, he was $80 too high!

The guy freaked out, calling me an asshole and scaring other shoppers. I went back to dealership #2 and bought the car.

22

I’ve had pretty good luck at negotiating with used car dealerships. My strategy is to identify two similar cars at competing dealerships. (I.e. 2021 VW Atlas with 35,000 miles). I then tell dealership A: I’m buying a car on Friday. I have 2 nearly identical cars I am looking at, give me your best out the door price, but know that I am going to take it to dealership B and am going to give them a chance to beat it. I don’t want to hear about payments, or what you’ll give me for a trade in until we have a final number agreed upon. I tell dealership B the same thing. When one of the dealerships looks at the other’s offer and tells me to fuck off and go buy it at the other place, I know I have gotten a good deal.

Or basically what Kayaker wrote while I was typing.

23

Back in 1985, we were looking to purchase a Mazda 626. One dealership tried tweaking the deal by adding upgrades to a lower trim model, that would have given us essentially the same features as the LX model. I noticed, but did not comment on, the fact that that suddenly the trade-in for our older car had dropped by 700 bucks.

Another salesman, at a different dealership, addressed all his questions / comments to my husband. Note that this was AFTER we’d done all the usual “what do you do?” chit-chat, during which it was revealed that I had a full-time job, and my husband was in grad school. In other words, I was likely bringing in more money than he was. But I lacked the essential equipment (a penis) for handling Scary Transactions, so…

We got into the showroom after the test drive, and I went into attack mode. No, I wasn’t rude or anything, but I had decided that we wanted to pay x amount of cash, in addition to the trade-in of the Omni. I got them down to within 400 of that. It was, all in all, a reasonably good deal, but I was pissed. So we walked.

The next day, we went to a dealership in the othe direction from where we lived (25ish miles either way). We actually had known someone who was a salesperson there, though as it turned out he had left the week before. In any case, we made the same deal there as we’d gotten the previous dealership down to.

3-4 days later, the salesperson from the “talking to the MAN” dealership called me and said that maybe they could make that deal after all.

I sald no thanks. And I told him why.

Back in December 1998, our Civic was totalled (remember, kiddies, ALWAYS wear your seat belts; my husband walked away from a 4 car pileup that totalled 3 cars). He popped into a Honda dealership to see what they had on the lot. We’d discussed what to pay - as we were looking for a 1998, and the 1999s were already out, we had a good idea we’d be able to get a deal. The salesman wouldn’t go down that low. My husband said he needed to discuss it with me. The salesman tried the tack of “You don’t need to get your WIFE’s permission to buy that car!”.

No, he doesn’t. Not if he doesn’t mind SLEEPING in that car. Egad. Playing the macho card, on a Civic??? I could (almost) see it if you were shopping for a “guy car” of some sort (Mustang, Ferrari, or whatever).

In any case, he got home, told me this tale, we laughed about it, and pulled out the phone book (anyone else remember those?) - and discovered another Honda dealership, closer to our house. I went to that one, saw that they had the exact model, year and trim line in the showroom, and said “give me dealer invoice price and I’ll take it off the lot today”. “Don’t you want to test drive it?”. “Nope. No need”.

24

The last time I bought a car was in 2009, and I used cars.com, which still exists, to get a list of cars for sale in my vicinity and their prices.

Based on what the OP and others in this thread are reporting, I wouldn’t necessarily trust the dealerships whose cars are listed there not to add on substantial fees to the prices listed, but I don’t remember that happening to me back in 2009.

25

Emphasis mine. This should always be the very first item discussed when purchasing a car. Nothing else matters initially. Once the “out the door” price is settled, then you can move on to the trade-in, if any, and then financing, if any. The dealers want to do things opposite this sequence - working you with “what do you want your monthly payments to be?” and then “here’s our best rate on financing” and then “here’s what we’ll give you for the trade-in” and finally “okay, this is what the car comes to after taxes, fees, etc…” and finally, “okay, let me talk to my manager…” or “let me hand you off to our finance manager”.

We’ve advised our adult children to secure financing ahead of car shopping, so they can always fall-back on that if the dealers wont offer them the same rate or better. The dealers use emotions to get you to fall in love with the vehicle and then essentially hold you hostage to your emotions. The last two used cars we have purchased came from Carmax and we are satisfied with them.

Obligatory relevant Fargo True-coat scene.

Also, I recently read about a scam by used car dealers with financing, where you sign all the papers for their loan, and then drive the car home, show all your family and friends, and then a few days/a week later, the dealer calls you to tell you your loan fell thru, but they can offer you a new loan (at a worse interest rate/worse terms). You can accept the new deal, or return the car. Tough luck if your trade-in is already gone, so you are forced to take the new deal. Total scumbags these dealers.

26

There’s a reason used car dealers have a bad reputation. New car dealers aren’t much better except you end up with a new car under warranty. The OP’s story is outrageous, and depending on the state possibly illegal.

27

So very, very true!

When we bought the Saturn, they insisted I had to speak to the finance manager even though I’d already arranged for financing through our credit union. The finance guy basically said “there’s no way we can beat that rate” and sent me back to the sales crew.

Dealer-arranged financing can be a good deal, or it can be a scam (evidently, it’s quite legal for them to arrange a markup on the rate, e.g. the bank charges 5%, you are paying 6%, and the difference goes to the dealership). It can certainly be convenient, if you don’t want to arrange outside financing, but you HAVE to know what the rates would be if you did.

With our last car purchase, we had already been pre-approved for a loan up to xx dollars, through our credit union. The dealership knew they couldn’t beat that.

Negotiating can also be handy if you have proof of a lower price elsewhere. Most dealerships are VERY reluctant to put anything like that into writing - likely because they know it’ll be used against them!

28

Exactly! My son recently purchased a car and had a loan already in his pocket. When the financing was being sussed-out (down payment, etc.) they offered him their terms for financing and he simply said he already had a better loan at X rate, and they agreed to come down to that, so he financed thru them (Carmax). I imagine they’d rather accept a lower than advertised rate than see the loan go somewhere else.

29

All the times I’ve bought a car, I’ve obtained approval through my credit union, and am completely uninterested in shopping loan rates.

The reason is simple: the car dealerships are experts at loan rates, and I’m not.

Their livelihoods depend, in no small part, on getting people to accept unfavorable loan terms. They’re very, very good at disguising those terms and making them look attractive. They do this every day they go to work.

Me? I buy a car about once every five to ten years (that is, me and my wife combined; I haven’t had a new car since around 2008). I consider car rate loans a tiny fraction of a percent as often as they do. If we get into a battle of wits over loan terms, I’m gonna lose.

But the credit union is on my side. Their interest is in keeping me happy, long-term, with their institution, and so they make their loans as simple and easy to understand as possible. They’re on my side. Their expertise isn’t wielded against me; it’s wielded for me.

So I get my approval. I go buy a car. And I cut them short when they start talking financing. There’s a tiny chance that I’m missing out on a better rate by doing so, but there’s a very good chance that I’m missing out on getting jacked by doing so.

If they tried to force me to hear their finance officer out, I’m not sure how I’d handle that. I’m afraid I wouldn’t show exemplary manners, though.

30

I would pay more for a car to not have to deal with this crap. One sticker price, that’s it. I’m not a negotiator. I just want the most car for the least hassle.

31

It definitely happens now on cars dot com.

32

Around here, Craigslist has been swarmed by used car scams like predators around a day care center. You see a bunch of cars photographed in front of different backgrounds, but they all have the same contact information. Cars disappear from listings only to reappear a few days later. I’ve seen photos of cars that are obviously stock photography.

33

My strategy, which has yet to fail me, is to go in close to closing time and say “I hate negotiating so I’ve written a number down, that you can’t see, that is the absolute most that I will write a check for. You’ll go get me your best offer and if it’s less than or equal to my number, then we have a deal. Otherwise, thank you for your time. There will be no second chances and I will not tell you how close you came to my number.”

34

Carmax and Carvana say “Hi” and wave hopefully.

The last time I bought a car, it was used from a dealership and they couldn’t meet my price so we eventually walked. A week later, I saw they had dropped the “But we couldn’t possibly go any lower because…” price on the auto sites so called the salesperson and asked if he was ready to hit my number. This time they were but, even then, they were trying to slip shit in like a Lojack subscription. I got it done but I also left with a clear understanding of why someone would just say “Fuck it” and head to Carmax to pay the “no haggle” window price even if it’s higher.

35

You can do that same in the USA.

In some cases- you can haggle on TVs and couches. Demand free delivery and/or set up. My friends had to order a whole new house of furniture, and haggled and got a nice discount.

We still love our old Saturn SC2. Some other places still offer haggle free. But Taxes etc are almost always extra.

One of the worst times to buy, but January is good. People still do buy cars for Christmas.

Right. The Toyota "four square " system is a rip off. Basically they want to know how much you want the payment to be. Also when you go in, if you cant pay cash, have a deal from a CU or bank lined up.

Yep.

36

I have no idea of the inner machinations of the auto sales industry, so here is my question:

Let’s say you finance thru the dealership. Might you get a lower price, since they will expect to make money in interest, or do they not see any benefit from financing? It would seem to be from a a dealerships POV that if you let them know you have enough to pay cash, that they might want to sell at a higher price, knowing that you’re off the hook for good.

37

I only walked away once from a dealer (Honda/Acura) and that was because they refused to negotiate. As in not at all, not one nickel, nothing. I guess they figured I’d be back, and they were right; but it was in my new Chrysler 300. I’ve never paid extraneous fees nor MSRP for a vehicle and never will.

38

The airline industry used to have things like “fuel surcharge” and my comment at the time was “an airline ticket with a fuel surcharge added is simplay an airline ticket at a higher price”. They just used the “surcharge” excuse to advertise a lower price.

Simialrly, there was an item on CBC about how businesses in touristy Niagara Falls, Ontario were charging a “resort fee” on top of the regular hotel or restaurant list price, since “a business is so expensive to run here”. the show said, if it is not advised ahead of time or on the menu, and not an actual tax, it was not obligatory to oay - they would be violating Ontario consumer law.

The same applies with cars. A “dealer fee”, if mandatory, is simply a car being sold at a mandatory price above the advertised price. it’s consumer fraud. IIRC this was what caused the crackdown on advertised air fares years ago. (So now they hit you with optional fees, like luggage, seat selection, and food or drinks so the base price appears cheap).

I suspect some dealers do not so much add to the rate of the loan, as they get a kickback commission from the bank for that loan.

As for dealer treatment… my wife got a lucrative job when she graduated from high school, and went to look at new cars. The Nissan dealer tried to steer her to the introductory model - “maybe this is more what you are looking for.” She went to the Acura dealer, who let her try the sporty model, even test drive it for a day. She bought it, then went back to the Nissan dealer to show it and give them a piece of her mind.

39

They might, yes, and there are special deals, like 0% financing. They like to finance. But go in with an approved loan, see if they can beat it.

40

This may be a bit of a sidetrack but curious if anyone knows what may be the answer.

What determines whether the salesman rides with you on a test drive or just hands you the keys?

Last time I was looking for a used car I went to 3 Honda dealerships. At 2 places they rode with me on the test drive. At the third, he just handed me the keys and said go drive it around. All of these experiences were on the same day, so I was dressed the same. All 3 cars were around 20k on the sticker.

Is this decision purely up to the gut feeling of the salesman or is something else going on?