# TSA body scanners and underwear bomber **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689 "2010-11-23T19:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/21 "2010-11-24T10:37:57Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > I was pointing out a case of _non-removal_. > > Can anybody here at the Dope speak of using one’s descending colon as a way of getting around a baggage charge? I know the Perfect Master spoke of this [once](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/478/is-it-true-what-they-say-about-gerbils); perhaps it’s time to revisit this question in a post 9-11 world: > > ``` > *Can you get enough explosive in and out of your bum to take out a commercial jet liner?* > > ``` Even if it isn’t enough to take down an airliner (though I’m not sure, wouldn’t even small amounts of plastic explosive judiciously placed be quite lethal to an airliner: think of putting it somewhere in the toilet directly behind the cockpit), what’s to stop the terrorists getting two or more people with explosives stuffed up their arses onto the same flight? They did get multiple people on to a flight on 9/11 after all. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/22 "2010-11-24T12:15:22Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Even if it isn’t enough to take down an airliner (though I’m not sure, wouldn’t even small amounts of plastic explosive judiciously placed be quite lethal to an airliner: think of putting it somewhere in the toilet directly behind the cockpit), what’s to stop the terrorists getting two or more people with explosives stuffed up their arses onto the same flight? They did get multiple people on to a flight on 9/11 after all. Yes, remaining within a GQ framework, it is worthwhile noting that strategic placement and partners can scale beyond whatever is possible to put up the bum. Whether that strategic placement is together or individual (I can imagine that also an over-wing location, such as opposite window seats, would have decent potential of serious damage to internals, as well as puncturing body skin for decompression). In any case, as the American reaction to failed attempts indicates, the mere attempts would be quite sufficient to send the USA into a spiral of security reinforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/23 "2010-11-24T13:45:22Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > _Can you get enough explosive in and out of your bum to take out a commercial jet liner?_ Speaking from personal experience, I’d estimate an adult male can fit (and retain for some duration) an appropriately-shaped solid object of over one pound into the rectum and descending colon. Maybe somebody else can answer for sure, but I’d guess that one pound of HE, extracted from said orifice and suitably relocated, would be enough to bring down the plane. And of course as noted, multiple players can integrate their caches into one giant ass-bomb, so even if the individual amount isn’t large enough, the aggregate amount can be. ---
**Author:** ![Lare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lare)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/24 "2010-11-24T13:55:37Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Speaking from personal experience, I’d estimate an adult male can fit (and retain for some duration) an appropriately-shaped solid object of over one pound into the rectum and descending colon. > > Maybe somebody else can answer for sure, but I’d guess that one pound of HE, extracted from said orifice and suitably relocated, would be enough to bring down the plane. > > And of course as noted, multiple players can integrate their caches into one **giant ass-bomb** , so even if the individual amount isn’t large enough, the aggregate amount can be. (bolding added) Didn’t even discuss the possibility of the people who have to buy two seats being used as delivery vehicles… ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/25 "2010-11-24T14:17:06Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > On the [Diane Rehm Show yesterday](http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-22/protests-against-tsa-screenings), Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the [Electronic Privacy Information Center](http://epic.org/) said that the machines were designed before the underwear bomber was caught last year, and that, despite claims to the contrary, **they cannot detect PETN,** the powder explosive he used. > > … I dunno. This [cite](http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/tags/petn/) states otherwise. > [@](#): > > The bomb that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab reportedly tried to set off as his flight neared Detroit on Christmas could have been detected using existing screening technologies, had they only been used. Not only could the explosives have been **spotted using back-scatter X-rays** or millimeter wave technology–which can see through clothes–invisible traces of the explosive could have been detected using chemical sensors. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/26 "2010-11-24T14:32:34Z")
> [@Lare](#): > > (bolding added) > Didn’t even discuss the possibility of the people who have to buy two seats being used as delivery vehicles… I said giant ass-bomb, not giant-ass bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Lare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lare)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/27 "2010-11-24T14:44:36Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I said giant ass-bomb, not giant-ass bomb. I just wasn’t sure if it was a bad ass pun or a badass pun. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/28 "2010-11-24T15:02:33Z")
It takes intestinal fortitude to get through threads like this. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/29 "2010-11-25T00:04:31Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > And how this connects with the discussion here where the removal of the explosives while in the lavatory has already been highlighted as an easy and trivial way to deal with that… The Saudi bombing was of course limited by the personal security around the Emir. Hardly the case in-flight. The Saudi bomber ass-sassin Abdullah Hassan al Asiri, who tried to kill Prince Mohammed bin Nayef was right next to the prince when he set off the bomb according to the [New York Post](http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/item_hKiF3TDJkgYItnBQkJXmTN). Except it wasn’t up his bum. Just like the Xmas day bomber, he’d hidden the device in his underwear. [Cite](http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-30/world/saudi.arabia.attack_1_prince-nayef-saudi-investigation-qaeda?_s=PM:WORLD). I guess I’ll bring up the obvious question. If it’s such a great idea, why hasn’t been used yet? I’ll hazard to guess that the reliability is too low to justify the weapon. Per **Machine Elf** ’s post: How easy was it to getting a 100 gram explosives and out of one’s bum? Inside of an airliner restroom? Probably easier said than done. But doable. You could probably use a 1 quart Ziploc. What about the fecal goo covering the package after extraction? Okay, use two Ziplocs. Throw the outer one away. Wash your hands. Stick the device in your underwear. Fire away. But you still have these problems to overcome: You better make sure the explosive is well sealed in your colon: PETN, which seems to be the explosive of choice for bringing down commercial airliners, is used as a [vasodilator](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentaerythritol_tetranitrate#Medical_use). OTOH, maybe you suffer ED and what the hell, 72 virgins might be pretty impressed with your junk in the afterlife–and no worries about “if tumescence persists for more than four hours, see your doctor…” In any case, explosives that are leaking or touch the colon’s mucosa are going to be regarded as colon blow. You still need a detonator. Electrical or chemical? Electrical would be the way to go reliability-wise. But the wires and batteries would set off the metal detectors. You’d keep be kept asked to go through the metal detectors over and over again, followed by a handheld magnetometer. And the wand keeps whining every time it sweeps over the glutes (this is a presumption on my part–could be wrong). Is this something that happens everyday at a TSA checkpoint? Don’t know. But TSA agents have been warned about “rectal bombers”. My guess is they’d be asking you to the isolation room. Chemical? It avoids detection by the magnetometer and scanners…but the Xmas Day bomber allegedly used sulfuric acid to initiate the explosive. Supposing you have a leakage of acid in your colon just before, or during the flight? Seems to me, even Al Qaeda knows that too much could go wrong with this idea and backfire, so-to-speak. Wait… How do you know the weapon will work? Making stuff boom in a reliable manner requires smart people, equipment, experience, and testing. Note the success of IED’s in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were crap at first, but got better over time. But making jet-liner bombs is a much more tedious and demanding in terms of logistics, personal, and planning. It’s difficult to gain experience in any quick fashion. You’ll note that Xmas day bomber got second degree genital burns rather than martyrdom. Speculation on my part, but I bet a lot of people decided that wasn’t the way they wanted to go. And seriously, looked at the characters they use to bomb the planes–did anyone of them strike you as a Tom Clancy genius antagonists? They were given cannon-fodder jobs; they all strike me as being willing, but not-too-bright. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/30 "2010-11-25T01:08:01Z")
Quoth **Leaffan** : > [@](#): > > Google “backscatter X-ray.” There’s lots of information. The image is produced by reflected gamma rays. No, if the image were produced by gamma rays, they’d call them backscatter gamma ray devices. What they use is, as you might guess, X-rays. Quoth **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** : > [@](#): > > Even if it isn’t enough to take down an airliner (though I’m not sure, wouldn’t even small amounts of plastic explosive judiciously placed be quite lethal to an airliner: think of putting it somewhere in the toilet directly behind the cockpit), what’s to stop the terrorists getting two or more people with explosives stuffed up their arses onto the same flight? They did get multiple people on to a flight on 9/11 after all. Or, if you’ve got a shortage of willing martyrs, you send one martyr and a handful of accomplices in, the accomplices extract their shares of the explosive in the airport, give them to the martyr, and then go safely on their way. Quoth **user\_hostile** : > [@](#): > > You still need a detonator. Electrical or chemical? Electrical would be the way to go reliability-wise. But the wires and batteries would set off the metal detectors. You’d keep be kept asked to go through the metal detectors over and over again, followed by a handheld magnetometer. Why would you have to hide it? People carry batteries and wires onto planes all the time. Just carry on a damn battery in your pocket, and when the TSA guys ask you what it is, tell them it’s a battery. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/31 "2010-11-25T03:33:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **user\_hostile** :Why would you have to hide it? People carry batteries and wires onto planes all the time. Just carry on a damn battery in your pocket, and when the TSA guys ask you what it is, tell them it’s a battery. Oh yeah? Oh yeah? Why not place the battery in the carry-on luggage _instead_ and then remove it later during the flight? You have a valid point. I’ll just point out that every time you add another step in the process of BOOM, you increase the chance of screw up. Look at Richard Reid: allegedly his bomb didn’t go off because the fuse got too wet from tramping around in the rain with his boots (and supposed foot perspiration). I’m willing to be that the guys in Yemen didn’t even think of that possibility 'cause you know _Yemen is a desert!_ (Not to mention he was a dim-wit–he tried board a transatlantic flight looking like a bum, with no luggage, and not answering some of the pre-flight security questions. You gotta wonder why Al Qaeda believes they’re going to rule the world–they’re hitting the Qat a little too much. Of course, the next day, Reid succeeded, which got you to wondering if the Sûreté Nationale was hitting the [absinthe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oliva.jpg) bottle a little too hard. I’m just point out that everything has to come together for this particular device to work. And I’ll repeat what I said earlier: _Why hasn’t it been done yet?_ Question: Could an airport magnetometer scanner set off a detonator? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/32 "2010-11-25T04:51:18Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > I’m just point out that everything has to come together for this particular device to work. And I’ll repeat what I said earlier: _Why hasn’t it been done yet?_ > > Question: Could an airport magnetometer scanner set off a detonator? And one hell of a lot of things had to come together for 911 also, but they did. Assuming that you have access to the parts, and the expertise it _seems_ simple. I could imagine any number of appropriate hard plastic vessels that could contain explosive that could be shoved up the but. And between carrying on notebook computers, PSP, and all manner of other portable devices, getting a detonator on board wouldn’t be that hard. Also, why would you have to hide the explosive after removal? Walk to toilet with belt bag / man bag…remove explosive, assemble, walk back to seat, kabloomie! Just as a further happy thought - how about the “sky suites” that Singapore airlines offers that are TOTALLY private, and big as a double bed? Why not just buy one of those and assemble you bomb inside? As a side note - how hard is it to combine multiple consignments of plastic explosive into one big package? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/33 "2010-11-25T15:47:23Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > TSA, bringing horses to tank battles since 2001. I thought Polock=Dumb jokes went out in the 80’s 😃 ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/34 "2010-11-25T20:49:48Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > And one hell of a lot of things had to come together for 911 also, but they did. Luck and the incompetence of the federal government along with others also played a role. The 9/11 Commission Report points out that the “_System was blinking red_.” So it shall be the next time it comes to pass. But the hijackers also performed surveillance runs (in which one alarmed [James Woods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Woods#Politics)). Even then, part of there mission failed because they didn’t anticipate the passenger uprising on Flight 93, thus possibly sparing the U. S. Capitol from a hit. It’s unclear to me whether dry runs were performed before Richard Reid or Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab embarked on their wet runs. AFAIK, I’ve never heard any evidence supporting that theory. It suggest to me that pressure from military/intelligence organizations have forced them to take more chances and hence, “success” has become more dicey. Given the simplicity of the setting off the bombs–lighting a fuse, or squeezing a syringe–_and they still failed to achieve the desired result_, suggests to me, anyway, assembling a bomb mid-flight and detonating it mid-flight is a more risky operation. I would guess Al Qaeda would have some awareness of that. > [@bengangmo](#): > > Assuming that you have access to the parts, and the expertise it _seems_ simple. I could imagine any number of appropriate hard plastic vessels that could contain explosive that could be shoved up the but. And between carrying on notebook computers, PSP, and all manner of other portable devices, getting a detonator on board wouldn’t be that hard. What would a detonator look like in an X-ray scanner? Would it look obvious that it’s not a computer part? I’ve handled blasting caps, and noted that they have a distinct shape and wiring. But I presume other types exist. And I would assume TSA would be on the look out for these devices. I don’t know. > [@bengangmo](#): > > Also, why would you have to hide the explosive after removal? > > Walk to toilet with belt bag / man bag…remove explosive, assemble, walk back to seat, kabloomie! The bathrooms on most jets are located by the wall of the fuselage. I would think that would be safer to pull a D. O. Guerrero. But I guess a “real” terrorist would want to set it off back at his/her seat for the dog & pony show. > [@bengangmo](#): > > Just as a further happy thought - how about the “sky suites” that Singapore airlines offers that are TOTALLY private, and big as a double bed? Why not just buy one of those and assemble you bomb inside? Does Al Qaeda fly first class? I checked the price for 1st class flight from Singapore to LAX. The amount was USD11k+. Something tells me that even for Al Qaeda, they’d balk at that price. They’ve been affected by the recession, too.😉 > [@bengangmo](#): > > As a side note - how hard is it to combine multiple consignments of plastic explosive into one big package? If the explosives are side-by-side, I don’t see it as a problem. But it’s yet another step that could blow-up-in-your-face. This is now becoming a logistical problem, because you need to coordinate the assembly of a bomb during the flight between two people. Don’t even bother with three or more: if someone screws up, then what? Hold a mid-air conference? I say the lone terrorist with just one button to push is going to be the most effective model. ---
**Author:** ![trupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trupa)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689/35 "2010-11-26T17:00:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I thought Polock=Dumb jokes went out in the 80’s 😃 What? Don’t you know those bloody [Polocks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollock)’re about as clever as a mackerel? I think your post is just a red herring. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsa-body-scanners-and-underwear-bomber/561689.md?page=1)