Nah, I’ll let you do that. Since your head is permanently stuck up your ass, you must be quite good at it by now. Enjoy!
Sorry. I was thinking only of the peice on the right. My bad.
If you can’t see that Miller’s post was 100% hyperbole, I submit that it’s you, milroyj, who has your head up your ass.
Right.
So that’s what we’re calling it now, hyperbole? Extremely poor taste, is what I’d call it. YMMV.
I guess I did not point out what I was so shocked about by this article… 
I was shocked by the fact that these people had seemed to have no Idea that they would/were going to be fined.
The article stated that they (the airline) allowed Ms. Rohani to put the cake server in her checked bags on the next flight out no mention of a fine
I am assuming they just took the knife away from Ms. Campbell and let her go again with no mention of a fine.
Also I was somewhat shocked by the fact that the TSA lawyers were
And as far as the thing about attitude being a factor in fines… I can understand. If someone is acting like a raving lunatic, being verbally abusive, or acting like an ass about stuff in their bag (or whatever) etc go ahead and fine them and don’t let them on the plane. If they are going to fine people fine they just need to make sure that everyone is treated equally (no special rights/no profiling) and notified right then and there that they will be fined.
Don’t get me wrong. I dont mind that they do not allow guns, explosives and pointy knives etc etc on planes, but sometimes the FAA and the TSA can get a little ridiculous with their rules.
For reference…(slight hijack)
I was “searched” by the security agents here in Las Vegas at McCarren airport for “looking agitated” and some other bullshit. Of coure I looked agitated, I was on my way to a funeral in Kansas (my aunt died unexpectedly) and another funeral (in Nebraska) the day after my aunts funeral of a longtime friend who had just died of cancer (she was 27 (so am I))and on top of it all I do not like flying (and I never have). Of course they found no contraban in my luggage. :rolleyes:
My own recent TSA experience. I spent a few days on Maui at the end of January. My flight out from Kahului Airport left at 2:00 PM on Feb. 1. I have a backpack I use for carryon items, which is full of things like my camera equipment, binoculars, trip journal, reading matierials, etc. I picked up my eticket from United, then headed for the security check. Showed my boarding pass to the TSA guard (he physically took it and looked at both sides) then sent my backpack through the Xray. Went through the metal detector, picked up my pack and headed for the gate. Smooth passage, everything went the way it was supposed to, right? Not quite.
When they called my group to get on the plane, I waited until it was almost gone, then got in line. Gave the boarding pass to the attendant, she looked at it and asked me to step to the side, she had to have TSA come and inspect me. I was supposed to have been inspected at the Xray machine. So I had to sit down to the side (with everyone looking at me and wondering) and waited about 15 minutes for the TSA guy to show.
He asked me if I had went through the security check, and if they had looked at my boarding pass. Yes to both. There was a mark on my boarding pass that indicated they were supposed to pull me to the side and check everything. They did not do it. And the guard there had looked right at my boarding pass. He wrote this down, then went through the whole routine. Used the wand on me, physically checked through every pouch and compartment in the backpack, pulled out and opened the camera stuff and the binocular case, even leafed through the books. Then he stamped my boarding pass and I was finally allowed on the plane.
None of this really bothered me, I understand the need for more security and at least I didn’t have to take off my shoes. The fact that the guards missed the indicator on my boarding pass did not make me real happy, since they were not that busy and I had figured out what it was before the TSA guy told me. But the best was yet to come.
I got home the next morning (I think I like O’Hare better than LAX for long layovers) and pulled things out of my backpack (you remember, my carryon, that the TSA guy pulled everything out of.) Right under the binocular case and the camera stuff, in the main compartment, is a cheap Leatherman knockoff. It only has two actual knife blades, the longest only about 2.5 inches, but it does have other tools on it, including pliers and a Phillips screwdriver. I had put it in the backpack on my vacation last August and forgotten about it. It went through 3 Xray machines, (I hate changing terminals at LAX) and a physical inspection by the TSA guy. Now I feel *really * good about our airline security. :rolleyes:
All I can say is … welcome to the way civilian pilots have been treated for decades. You screw up, you think the matter is settled, then 90-120 days later you get a letter threatening Dire Consequences and you’re scrambling for a lawyer.
I agree - if possession of “contraband” will result in a fine people should be made aware of this. “I’m sorry you forgot the pocket knife was in your backpack, sir, but that is a violation and you will be charged $150. Look for the letter in the mail.” I mean, hell, if I blow a stop sign while driving my car I can still get a violation whether it was intentional or not, same concept. What I think is pissing people off is that these rules/penalities are relatively new, particularly to folks who don’t fly much on commercial airlines, and they seem to change from day to day. It would also make sense to have a spot BEFORE the Big Deal Security, a table, say, where you could park your bag for one last check by YOU before you’re nailed by the TSA. Yes, you should do it before you leave, but multiple checks is also a valid approach to security.
When I fly commercial I’ve long had a policy of traveling as light as possible. I think I’ll leave the knitting at home from now on (pointy objects like knitting needles and yarn scissors seemed to be allowed one day and not the next) and stick to books and crosswords for entertainment, and problably just leave my whole damn keychain at home. There ARE complications when I’m doing the piloting however, they really makes me dread landing at certain airports where I could meet up with the TSA out to protect me from myself.
Nor am I convinced that the current techniques are really effective. I have grave doubts about aviation security these days, and I don’t trust the politicians to solve them.
I think the operative point there is that you can get a violation if you’re caught running a stop sign. But there’s discretion from the cop, you can plead your case and ask for lenience and the officer can let you go with a verbal or written warning instead of a citation. And you know, right there and right then, the discretion is exercised right in front of you, and if you want to have a hearing, you can get one within a very reasonable amount of time and in a reasonable location.
Not so with the TSA. They make you think that you’ve avoided a violation by letting you “rectify” the situation by taking the “contraband” out of your carry-on. It seems to me that most people, once they’ve willingly put something in their checked baggage and acted contrite and cooperative about fixing what was wrong, even if it meant missing their scheduled flight, think that they’ve avoided any penalty because no harm was done. Americans tend to operate on a “no harm, no foul” point of view.
But the TSA rule says that the violation doesn’t occur when you get onto an airplane with contraband but when you approach the security counter with contraband, so therefore all of these people who have acted in good faith to rectify the situation which has arisen due to mistake, forgetfulness, unawareness of the rules or (in many cases) the arbitrary, on the spot rulings of TSA employees acting under their extremely (over)broad discretionary power have broken the rule and can be hit with a penalty which seemingly is decided at some other time.
It may be the law, it may be the best way to ensure the safety of everyone, it may be appropriate to penalize people for the delays and administrative effort caused by their actions, but it doesn’t seem that the rules are being uniformly applied, it doesn’t seem that the process is being made clear to people and it doesn’t seem that the rules are being applied fairly when people are being threatened with 5 figure fines because they dare to question the authori-tay by asking for due process.
And that is the side of this which bothers. No one is made safer by the lack of a uniform standard across airports. No one is made safer by the lack of a uniform standard of behavior by TSA agents. No one is made safer by arbitrary decisions about which violators ought to be fined or how much their fines will be. No one is made safer by surprising these people with fines well after the fact. No one is made safer by the imposition of unnecessary barriers to redress in the courts. No one is made safer by the punitive doubling of fines due to “late payment.” No one is made safer by TSA officials and lawyers getting high-handed and threatening with taxpayers.
Yet these situations exist, while people are still getting onto planes with Leatherman tools, bottles full of bleach, and all other manner of things which shouldn’t be anywhere near a passenger jet full of people, and yet, no one is getting high-handed with the TSA employees who are failing to do their jobs in these cases, but they can get threatening with citizens who have made errors in good faith. This is what our government thinks is in our best interests. I say that they’re dead wrong.
Could the title of this thread be any more inflammatory and inaccurate? Debate the policy and its enforcement all you want to, but the fact remains, the TSA is most obviously NOT “fining random people.” They are fining people who attempt to bring knives aboard airplanes. Big difference there, IMO.
Hyperbole and poor taste are not mutually exclusive, in case you didn’t know.
But they are not fining all of them. At least I have never heard of them fining anyone before. So it is not a stretch that they are picking people at random to fine.
Lok
For what it’s worth, I agree that these fines are probably bad policy. As other folks have pointed out, they absolutely won’t deter terrorism.
It’s conceivable that the fines might result in time savings for the authorities, but I doubt the savings would be that much. Because people are gonna continue violating the law unintentionally.
And I can see these fines generating a lot of badwill on the part of honest citizens. Which is too bad, because the authorities can benefit from cooperation by ordinary citizens.
It seems to me that if they really feel they must fine people, they should not do so on the first offense. Just give the person a written warning and a booklet explaining what is not allowed on planes and thanking them for their cooperation.
IMHO, this would have just as much deterrent effect and wouldn’t alienate people.
All right then – so it should have been “TSA now fining random people who’ve been caught attempting to carry knives onto airplanes.” Which I admit wouldn’t have fit into the little title window.
Personally, this isn’t something I’m enormously fired up about either way. I can live with minor fines to people who’ve violated what I consider to be a very understandable policy – even by mistake. The threat of a fine should serve to help people to remember not to pack their machetes in their carry-on bags. On the other hand, I think the fining schedule needs to be much more fully disclosed – perhaps a ‘ticket’ could be issued as with a traffic violation with a number to call to hear your fine. But the idea of “random people” being fined is overstating the situation badly.
To me “random” would mean they’re grabbing every third customer and fining them, or that each agent is required to fine at least 15 people a day and those people can be selected at… well, random. The people fined weren’t chosen randomly. Although all the people who violated the bringing-weapons-aboard-policy weren’t fined; all of the people who were fined had violated the policy. So it wasn’t random. I don’t have a problem with hyperbole, but the choice of the word “random,” IMO, didn’t so much exaggerate the complaint as completely mischaracterize it.
“TSA now fining people unfairly” would have been a better choice of title (and one that would have fit in the title bar). Since the fines don’t appear – at least from the information in the OP – to have been universally applied to all violators, a case can be made that people were unfairly fined. Also, the violators don’t seem to have been notified of the fine at the time of the violation and that seems unfair, possibly. But it wasn’t random, IMO, any way it’s sliced.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned this part of the article yet:
I travel by air a lot. I carry a large breifcase/rollaboard suitcase. Inside I carry all kinds of stuff, including a license plate (I work for a car company and carry a distributor plate).
Many times the plate will show up and my bag will get extra screening. I don’t have a problem with this.
One time I was told that I had a tool in my luggage. The guy opened my case and went digging and found a 10mm open-end wrench. (What I put the plate on with). Knowing that I had screwed up (I know that tools are illegal to carry on) I apologized for being a dunderheard, and apologized again for having this in my luggage. I was offered a chance to take the item back and check it. I declined as it was not a spendy tool but rather the freeby that is included in the car’s tool kit. It sounds to me like the people in question did not handle the issue the same way I did.
Just like when you get stopped for speeding, greeting the cop with “What the fuck did you stop me for, why don’t you go catch some real criminals.” is probably not the best way to talk yourself out of a ticket.
If anyone should have been fined for accidentily taking contraband on a flight, it should have been me. I used a small backup for a carry-on, which I use to go to the shooting range. Somehow I was able to make it to LA, via a connecting flight in Phoniex, with live ammunition in one of the backpacks pockets which I had forget to remove from my last time at the range. Only before the return flight in LA was the ammo discovered while the bag was going through the x-ray machine. The TSA officials didn’t even make that big of a deal about it in LA, the ammo was confiscated, I was taken away and interviewed for probably 1/2 an hour or so, I missed my flight, but no fines and no arrest. So the TSA seems to have a pretty inconsistent policy for fines…
This is why I just don’t fly anymore.
I drive, or else I don’t go.
Air travel sucked before 9/11–now it’s intolerable!
The problem is that fines for infractions like this are meant to legitimize the bureaucracy. We already pay for the TSA to exist, and for the poorly trained and chosen chuckleheads to rifle through our personal belongings, in the name of (non-existant) increased security. There’s got to be discretion on the part of the TSA to fine some asshat who brings his bowie knife to the airport and some lady who forgot to remove her cake server. No, she shouldn’t have taken it in her carry-on, yes she did, no, she shouldn’t have been fined for it, yes, it should have been taken away, and stowed and freight payed by her, end of story.
The TSA will eventually become an impressive bureaucracy even by Washingtons’ standards, and it will become more and more difficult to fight egregious fines like this one, I’m going to miss air travel, i rather liked it.