TSA require your U.S. driver's license to have a star to fly in 2020...

[Broomstick]

@Slash1972

According to the BMV website, they do appointments for:

[ul]
[li]Driver’s License and State ID Renewal[/li][li]Vehicle Registrations (Up to Three Indiana Vehicles)[/li][li]Title a Vehicle (One Indiana Vehicle or One Indiana Watercraft)[/li][/ul]

That’s just skippy. I am telling you based on living in Indiana for over 20 years that regardless of what it says on the website they DON’T do that. Now, it may be a problem solely in my particular county, or it could be some do and some don’t but you might consider that actual experience has some validity here. I have spent way too much goddamned time with the BMV these last couple months and trust me, if I could have made an appointment I would have. Hell, the last time I was in there they were pushing me to use the self-serve kiosk and I kept telling them no, I wanted to talk to a live human being because this is all such a mess.

@Slash1972

But as I said, the person who just made up a name for you, that’s ridiculous.

I agree. Nonetheless, it is costing me time, money, and effort to get this fixed so I’m not arguing with bureaucrats for the rest of my life about what my name is.

@bump

Which is fine- but why would the cities even be issuing birth certificates in that case?

That’s what I’m getting at- that doesn’t make sense for them to be issuing them if they’re not valid, unless obtained at the county.

One more time - The ONLY entity that can issue a valid birth certificate for me is the CITY of St. Louis. Not the state of Missouri. Not the county of St. Louis. Because that’s the way it is done in the city of St. Louis. There are NO “state issued” birth certificates in Missouri because it’s done either by the county or the city of St. Louis. All of which, by the way are valid…

… but if I go to Texas and your DMV requires a “state level” or “state issued” birth certificate it is impossible for me to provide one because it does not exist, has never existed, and can not exist because state of Missouri does not issue birth certificates. Period. And I wasn’t born in any county in the US, so I can’t provide a “county level” birth certificate either, for the same reason.

Clearly, there are some entities who are failing to recognize the validity of properly issued documents from other states. Probably because they’re provincial jerks who have never traveled to anywhere outside their birthplace and therefore stubbornly refuse to comprehend that there is anywhere not exactly like their home town. Just too damn bad they can make life hell for someone from out of town, but then who wants them damn foreigners moving in anyway, right? Rather like morons who insist that people born in New Mexico aren’t US citizens because, ya know, there’s “Mexico” in the state name and that’s a foreign country, right? Had coworker a few years back working a cash register who tripped over that one. At least she had the excuse of being young and naive, and accepted correction on her mistake. State bureaucrats… not so much.

As pointed out to you, it doesn’t make sense to you because you’ve (apparently) never lived with any system other than you own, in Texas. This is why RealID, which initially looks straightforward, is generating a lot of problems for a lot of people. It’s because folks such as yourself can’t seem to comprehend that other places do things differently, or have a different way of tracking and/or issuing vital documents. People on a message board with trouble understanding that aren’t really a problem. People working in the DMV/BMV/whatever who are in involved in issuing licenses and ID’s who don’t understand this are a nightmare.

@Jasmine

I just renewed my license (IL) and got a crappy paper temp license because I have to wait 15 days for the new compliant one. If you aren’t renewing within the next year, however, you’ll either have to use a passport or make a special trip to the DMV to upgrade to the new version.

Did the Illinois DMV tell you that that “crappy paper license” was just as good for anything as the plastic one? Because if they did they lied to you. Perhaps not intentionally - many employees don’t seem to understand the problem.

Sure, if you get pulled over by a cop that paper license is good - because when the cop scans the bar code his computer can pull up all sorts of information about you and your license and double check that you are who you claim to be. But if you, say, attempted to purchase something from the store I work at we can NOT accept that as your ID. Period. Anyone could photoshop and print off something similar, or alter some information and we would have no way to confirm it. When we scan that bar code all OUR computers will tell us is whether someone is underage, their age between 18 and 39, or that they are over 40. And nothing else - so we can’t confirm that the bar code we’re scanning belongs to the name or picture or anything else given. Maybe you copied a legitimate bar code onto bogus information. Maybe it’s a real legit “crappy paper license” but we can’t know that. We don’t know and we can’t find out so for purposes of determining if you could buy booze or ammunition or fireworks or pellet guns or spray paint or R-rated movies or even some types of cough syrup it’s completely useless. This has occasionally enraged people who keep insisting the DMV said it was just as good as their permanent license. It’s not.

It’s not just the Illinois DMV spreading that bullshit - it’s also the Indiana BMV. It’s headache and a half. I am getting tired of explaining to people that it doesn’t matter if the cop/DMV/BMV/bar last night/last week’s rave accepted it - we can’t. That’s what my employer has decided and I kind of need to keep my job.

Bottom line - don’t ever take legal advice from the DMV.

[markn_1]

Probably not unrelated to this upcoming TSA requirement: most DMV offices in the San Francisco Bay area have no appointments available, at all. If you try to schedule an appointment on the web site you get the message “Sorry, all appointments at this office are currently taken. Please select another office.” I found just one office out of seven I tried that offers an appointment, and the earliest one it offers is almost 3 months from now.

[puzzlegal]

Look, to those of you who say, “it’s easy for me”, I should hope it’s easy for a lot of people. I hope we aren’t creating regulations that require most everyone to waste dozens of hours trying to comply.

If this were good regulation:

1. it would be easy for >99% of the population who need to deal with it
2. the benefits of the regulation would be obvious, and the 1% who found it onerous could comfort themselves by knowing that their effort was supporting a worthwhile cause.

But Real ID is probably hard for upwards of 20% of the population (including most older women), and there’s no obvious benefit to anyone. It doesn’t make us safer drivers. It doesn’t make us safer at airports. It satisfies some fascists somewhere who want to control the population, but I can’t see who else benefits from these hoops.

[puzzlegal]

@Broomstick

…
It’s not just the Illinois DMV spreading that bullshit - it’s also the Indiana BMV. It’s headache and a half. I am getting tired of explaining to people that it doesn’t matter if the cop/DMV/BMV/bar last night/last week’s rave accepted it - we can’t. That’s what my employer has decided and I kind of need to keep my job…

A word of advice from someone who has argued with people in your position: Cut right to “I have to do this to keep my job” You may not be able to convince me that your employer has made a good decision. Your employer may NOT have made a good decision. But I can respect that you want to keep you job even if I think the reasoning your employer used is stupid. And I’ll stop arguing with you. And I bet I’m not alone at that.

[BeeGee]

@bump

Well, no, the point is that it doesn’t make sense. There has to be ONE document-of-record somewhere, and all the issuers are issuing the same document. At least here in Texas, they’re state level documents; i.e. the primary repository is in Austin, and the counties and cities are issuing ones that are held at the state level- the cities only issue ones for their own city, while the counties can do it for anywhere in the state.

But they’re the same document regardless of who actually issues them, which was my point.

Since when? I had to get a copy of my birth certificate a few years back. I live in Austin, but most certainly could NOT get it from anyone in Austin. I had to contact the county where I was born.

[D_Anconia]

@Broomstick

That’s just skippy. I am telling you based on living in Indiana for over 20 years that regardless of what it says on the website they DON’T do that.

Whom should we believe? The Bureau’s website, or a poster on the internet?

[NeeCD]

@puzzlegal

I assume that if I needed to prove I’m married the town would be able to cough up a document. Oddly, no one has ever asked me to prove that, including employers giving my husband benefits, and insurance companies. I’m guessing that it’s something people don’t lie about very often, and the cost of verifying it isn’t worth the benefit. Hmm.

My husband has 4 kids - 3 have his last name (Kid1, Kid3, and Kid4) and Kid2 has her mom’s last name. I did not change my name when we got married a few years ago, so 3 surnames in one household.

We previously had insurance through my job, and it was just a matter of entering their names, birthdays and SSNs to add them. I quit working last year, and when my husband started a new job last fall he had 30 days from the date he started to sign up for insurance. No problem, right? That’s plenty of time, even with the Thanksgiving holiday thrown into the middle of it (or so I thought).

It took us about a week or so to look through the info and decide what to sign up for, then a few days for our names/info to show up on the insurers website. Well he and the kids with his name were there, but no sign of me or Kid2. Also, instead of “Family” the plan was showing up as “Employee and Children”. At this point we had about a week left of the enrollment period and I was starting to stress out.

After several days of back and forth with the insurance guy, it turned out that, because Kid2 and I had different last names, we had to send in proof that we were eligible. In my case it was a copy of the marriage cert, and in her case a copy of the birth cert. Luckily, we had the documents at home, and we have a printer that can scan and send email. If we would have had to acquire them and/or find another way to get the documents to the insurer (Kinko’s, snail mail?) Kid2 and I would have been SOL for insurance until the next enrollment period a year later. That’s terrifying when you need prescriptions and regular medical checkups to deal with a chronic illness (and who knows when they were going to tell us to send them if husband hadn’t pushed).

We don’t have Real ID yet where I live, but I can’t imagine it stressing me out as much as the insurance stuff (and hey, I know where all our docs are now). Maybe I should just get a passport card and not worry about it.

[Falchion]

@puzzlegal

But Real ID is probably hard for upwards of 20% of the population (including most older women), and there’s no obvious benefit to anyone.

I would be curious about the basis for your claim that Real ID would be hard for “most older women.”

[puzzlegal]

@Falchion

I would be curious about the basis for your claim that Real ID would be hard for “most older women.”

Older women are more likely to have changed their name, or have multiple names they’ve used, and as they’ve likely never needed documentation before, are less likely to have documents handy.

[D_Anconia]

@puzzlegal

Older women are more likely to have changed their name, or have multiple names they’ve used, and as they’ve likely never needed documentation before, are less likely to have documents handy.

I understand that women are more likely to have changed their name, but why would they be less likely to have documentation? These days, people need ID for a host of reasons.

[doreen]

@D_Anconia

I understand that women are more likely to have changed their name, but why would they be less likely to have documentation? These days, people need ID for a host of reasons.

Because it’s documentation of events that happened further in the past- it’s very to use the marriage certificate I got last week to get ID. Iit might be more problematic to locate the one from my wedding 32 years ago that I haven’t seen in 25 years( because I haven’t needed it in 25 years). And I got married at my parish church - if I had gotten married 32 years ago at a venue in another state, I might have no idea where to get a duplicate. *

• Not even joking - my daughter got married at a venue in NJ that was right on the border of two counties. NJ residents could get a license from any county, non-residents had to get a license from the county where the venue was located. Took her weeks to find out which county she needed the license from - not sure she’ll remember which if she needs a coipy 35 years from now.

[puzzlegal]

@D_Anconia

I understand that women are more likely to have changed their name, but why would they be less likely to have documentation? These days, people need ID for a host of reasons.

Also, because we old folks didn’t need documentation, and so may not have the back up items now required. If you opened a bank account 30 years ago, you didn’t need to prove much more than that you had money to deposit and could give them a signature. And that bank will still do business with you. The bank manager recognizes me. I don’t need to show him id, he has looked up my account and handed me $3000 based purely on a verbal request. (I didn’t even tell him the account number, he knew my name and looked it up himself.)

I’ve literally never proved my SSN to anyone, ever. The fact that my withheld taxes would be attributed to that SSN was enough proof.

So older people who have lived in the same place for a while are much less likely to keep id handy than young people are.

Seriously, in my youth, the cop saying “your papers, please” was shorthand for, “this movie is set in a fascist dictatorship”. It’s very weird to me that it’s become the reality of the US.

[thorny_locust]

@Broomstick

Clearly, there are some entities who are failing to recognize the validity of properly issued documents from other states.

Not to mention that there are entirely legitimate citizens* of the USA whose birth certificates were issued in a different country. And/or in locations in which the courthouse doesn’t exist any longer.

(*And entirely legitimate residents who aren’t citizens, but who might need to drive, fly, and/or enter a federal building.)

[D_Anconia]

@puzzlegal

Also, because we old folks didn’t need documentation, and so may not have the back up items now required. If you opened a bank account 30 years ago, you didn’t need to prove much more than that you had money to deposit and could give them a signature. And that bank will still do business with you. The bank manager recognizes me. I don’t need to show him id, he has looked up my account and handed me $3000 based purely on a verbal request. (I didn’t even tell him the account number, he knew my name and looked it up himself.)

I hate to come across as obtuse, but in thirty years, didn’t they have to renew a driver’s license, travel, register to vote, or go to a courthouse? Heck, the doctor’s office requires taking a Xerox of my current license once a year.

[Chingon]

I doubt they specifically require the use of a Xerox brand photocopier.

[Slash1972]

@Chingon

I doubt they specifically require the use of a Xerox brand photocopier.

They do. It’s buried in the ACA.

[Spiderman]

@D_Anconia

I hate to come across as obtuse, but in thirty years, didn’t they have to renew a driver’s license, travel, register to vote, or go to a courthouse? Heck, the doctor’s office requires taking a Xerox of my current license once a year.

[ul]
[li]Part of renewal of DL is online; once that is done & you get a camera card in the mail, then you go to the DMV to get your photo taken/new license. All I need is the camera card & my old license.[/li]
[li]Passports are good for 10 years, Renewal can be done via mail as long as the old one was issued w/in the last 15 years.[/li]
[li]Needing ID to get into a federal building/military base is a relatively new thing. [/li]
[li]If you haven’t moved or moved w/in the same district (ie. like neighborhood but moving up /downsizing) you don’t need to reregister.[/li][li]Our county courthouse also holds some county offices; one must go thru a metal detector but not otherwise show any ID to enter.[/li][/ul]

[Chingon]

@Slash1972

They do. It’s buried in the ACA.

Thanks Obama.

[Saintly_Loser]

@bump

Which is fine- but why would the cities even be issuing birth certificates in that case?

That’s what I’m getting at- that doesn’t make sense for them to be issuing them if they’re not valid, unless obtained at the county.

I have no idea *why *cities are issuing birth certificates, but they *are *issuing them, and have been for decades.

My birth certificate clearly states that it is issued by the City of New York (and not, by the way, by any of the five counties that make up NYC).

And I was born during the Eisenhower administration. So this has been going on for a while.

[thorny_locust]

@D_Anconia

I hate to come across as obtuse, but in thirty years, didn’t they have to renew a driver’s license, travel, register to vote, or go to a courthouse? Heck, the doctor’s office requires taking a Xerox of my current license once a year.

I’ve renewed my driver’s license every time before this with no documentation required except the previous driver’s license and either a note from my eye doctor or an extremely basic eye exam done right at the DMV when I renewed it. They also take a picture of me at the DMV. I’m about 99.9% sure I didn’t need any documentation to get the original license back in the 1970’s; I just needed to pass the written and then road tests. Then as now the DMV took the pictures.

I registered to vote here just about thirty years ago. I don’t think I needed anything other than an address and a signature. I might have needed a picture ID, in which case the driver’s license would have been plenty; but I’m not sure I needed that. – ah, just found a current NYState voter registration form online, and all you need even now is the last four digits of your SSN – not the card, just the numbers. Or any one of a batch of other items.

https://www.elections.ny.gov/NYSBOE/download/voting/voteform_enterable.pdf

We’ll try to check your identity before Election Day, through the DMV number (driver’s license number or non-driver ID number), or the last four digits of your social security number, which you’ll fill in below. If you do not have a DMV or social security number, you may use a valid photo ID, a current utility bill, bank statement, paycheck, government check or some other government document that shows your name and address. You may include a copy of one of those types of ID with this form— be sure to tape the sides of the form closed.

I still don’t need any ID to get into the courthouse. - wait a minute, I was called to jury duty this past spring at the county courthouse, and I did need to show my picture ID – just the plain old driver’s license, see above. I assumed that was about the jury duty, but maybe they’ve started requiring it to get into the building and I just didn’t realize it. I certainly never used to need an ID to get in there. I still don’t need one to get into the building which houses, among other things, the Town court.

I’ve never needed anything at the doctor’s office but my insurance cards. When I had no insurance, some years ago, I didn’t need that.

I’ve travelled all over the United States with no ID but my driver’s license. I wouldn’t have needed that, except that I was driving. I’ve also been into Canada with nothing but the driver’s license. And I’ve flown various places in the USA with no other ID than that; and, if we go back enough years, IIRC without showing ID at all.

I went to Europe about 40 years ago. For that I did need a passport, and I think I needed my birth certificate to get the passport, and I know I had to have pictures taken. I haven’t needed the birth certificate for anything since. I’ve renewed the passport every time it came up, including within the last couple of years, just by mailing the old one in with the fee and new pictures; and I only did that, until this last time, so I wouldn’t have the hassle and time and extra expense of doing it over again from scratch if I wanted to travel outside North America again (for most of my life, I wouldn’t have needed it for Canada or Mexico).

And there are a whole lot of people who have never had a passport. It’s quite common. In larger cities there are quite a few people who don’t have a driver’s license, either. It is, or used to be, entirely legal for a US Citizen to go about their business without carrying any documentation. As puzzlegal says, we weren’t supposed to need it.

And no, the country wasn’t swarming full of people fraudulently pretending to be somebody else.