# TSA's Groin check? Going too far? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853 "2010-11-16T14:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/81 "2010-11-16T23:36:25Z")
I actually think that Whack-A-Mole’s straw man argument about the average TSA employee’s enjoyment brings up a good point. Being a TSA screener is a great job for a homosexual - or worse, a pedophile! No real qualifications needed. Get paid money to have a groping good time at work - legally do what you normally can’t without being arrested. Just maintain a straight face while you’re working - but otherwise it is all good. And please don’t insult doctors by saying homosexuals and ped’s could follow this route. Clearly the education and professionalism needed would weed out people who take the job for the jollies of it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/82 "2010-11-16T23:37:47Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > No, I bloody well don’t. I have to fly to your benighted land of ignoramuses, it’s an obligation, not a choice. I do try to minimize and avoid it as much as possible, however. > Charming, were it actually something under my control. Unless they are coming to get you to fondle your junk you have a choice. If you have a job that requires travel then get a new job if it bothers you so much. LOTS of jobs have unpleasantness associated with them. In high school I worked in a fast food restaurant. Did lots of supremely sucky jobs that were distinctly unpleasant. I had a choice. Suck it up or find a new job. You have the same choice (hell, make it work for you and tell your boss you deserve a raise dealing with all this bullshit). > [@](#): > > Oh, mayhaps a simple insult to a class of people (TSA staff) that generally treat the public with which they interact with a sort of American-Soviet level of courtesy? > No, except to the degree - at least at NY and Chicago airports, their comportment adds to the general unpleasantness. I agree they are shitty assholes much of the time. Thing is look at it from their perspective. You see them once for a few minutes and are done. You hassle them a little. You leave. For them it is you and the next person and the next person ad infinitum. They have to deal with your shit x10,000 people. And the guy who decides to make a fuss in the security line is holding the whole thing up. Just how much should they coddle cranky travelers? Yeah they are assholes but you probably would be too doing that job. Want better treatment then raise the pay substantially of these workers, give them extensive training commensurate with a 5-star hotel and deal with the substantial price increase in your airfare. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/83 "2010-11-16T23:39:11Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > You say this, yet you also blast people for “choosing” to fly, then calling TSA out on their bullshit. Yet TSA agents “chose” a job where they grope people for no reason. Why should they be respected and we just shut up and take it? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/84 "2010-11-16T23:41:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you don’t want to do the screenings then don’t fly. Simple. > > Take a train, drive, take a bus or stay home. How do you drive or take a train or bus to an overseas destination? You can’t drive across the ocean, after all. And as **wmfellows** rightly observes, a big part of the problem is that the rest of the planet eventually has to conform to whatever the US Security Requirements are; which is why someone flying from New Zealand to Australia can’t bring a bottle of soft drink onto the flight and are subject to random explosive residue tests etc. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/85 "2010-11-16T23:44:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? You keep wailing that “it’s their job!” like it means something. That they probably hate their job and that making a fuss over it only makes it worse. Why should I care? They took the job. They chose to take a shitty job that violates my rights. What part of that am I supposed to be concerned about on _their_ behalf? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/86 "2010-11-16T23:46:30Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > You keep wailing that “it’s their job!” like it means something. That they probably hate their job and that making a fuss over it only makes it worse. > > Why should I care? They took the job. They chose to take a shitty job that violates my rights. What part of that am I supposed to be concerned about on _their_ behalf? None whatsoever. You are correct. Point is they are drones doing a job. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/87 "2010-11-16T23:51:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Unless they are coming to get you to fondle your junk you have a choice. You have a most peculiar conception of the meaning of the word choice. > [@](#): > > If you have a job that requires travel then get a new job if it bothers you so much. How very realistic, this advice. I’d rather prefer Americans change because American security bothers me and it is fundamentally stupid and a major waste of capital. How about that, eh mate? “Get a new job” all because the lot of you over there are frightened gits? And again I note, unfortunately your bloody TSA is doing its level best to impose its sheer drooling stupidity on the rest of the world. What’s particularly queer is that a good portion of you lot over there seem righteously convinced this is good and proper methodology, when experienced international travellers can tell you it’s bloody daft and stupid. Idiot provincialism tied to the reign of the Security-Frightened Bunny Apparatus. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/88 "2010-11-16T23:53:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > How do you drive or take a train or bus to an overseas destination? You can’t drive across the ocean, after all. Right, precisely, but terribly American response. > [@](#): > > And as **wmfellows** rightly observes, a big part of the problem is that the rest of the planet eventually has to conform to whatever the US Security Requirements are; which is why someone flying from New Zealand to Australia can’t bring a bottle of soft drink onto the flight and are subject to random explosive residue tests etc. Quite, and non-conforming jurisdictions come under immense pressure from the Americans to comply with their brand of idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/89 "2010-11-16T23:57:47Z")
The problem with ‘security theater’, aside from the gradual increase in the intrusion of government into the private sphere, is that it provides the _illusion_ of security. It allows people to let their guard down in other areas. There’s an old saying that generals always prepare to fight the last war. And the TSA tries to protect you from the last terrorist attack. In the meantime, there are other, completely unprotected soft targets all over the country that get no attention. And other ways to cause havoc at an airport that doesn’t involve setting a bomb off on a plane. What happens when some terrorist rents a Cessna Skywagon and flies it into a jet sitting on a taxiway waiting to take off? Such an event would likely kill most of the people on both planes. Are we then going to ban private aviation from major airports? What if that terrorist fills the Skywagon with napalm and nail bombs, and crashes it into the middle of a crowd at an open-air concert or a football game and kills 10,000 people? Are we going to ban small aircraft from any area where there’s a crowd? What if a terrorist derails an Amtrack train with a rail bomb? Are you going to put inspectors all along the track forever? What if a terrorist drives a semi filled with ammonium nitrate explosive into a major tunnel and detonates it? Are you going to stop all truck traffic and search it before allowing it into tunnels or onto bridges? What if a terrorist uses the same kind of bomb in a truck to vaporize a few thousand gallons of chlorine at a waste treatment plant? What if terrorists start doing John Allen Muhammed style sniper attacks in large numbers? That guy and a teenager terrorized a wide area for days. Imagine that being repeated randomly all across the country, with new incidents cropping up every few weeks. How are you going to stop that? The list goes on, and on, and on. The west is made up of free, open societies just filled with soft targets. Refineries, chemical storage facilities, factories that use hazardous materials, train shipments of deadly chemicals, you name it. You can’t protect it all. You can’t even protect a decent percentage of it. What you CAN do, which would actually enhance safety, would be to send a message to terrorists that they can’t break your spirit, that anything they do to you will not change your policies or your lifestyle. By reacting to each attack with a new round of restrictions, you validate their strategy and give them incentive to keep at it. The best anti-terrorism policy the U.S. could have had would have been to engage in an accelerated program to rebuild the World Trade Center site, only taller and more impressive. Maybe with a giant American flag on the top. Instead, ten years later there’s still a big hole in the ground. That in itself sends a message of weakness and fear. All the security in the world isn’t going to protect you if the terrorists think they’re winning the long war. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/90 "2010-11-17T00:15:57Z")
So this is strange. CAIR has released [this statement](http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=26681&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1) saying that Muslim women should refuse the scan, and includes these statements: [QUOTE=CAIR] Before you are patted down, you should remind the TSA officer that they are only supposed to pat down the area in question, in this scenario, your head and neck. They SHOULD NOT subject you to a full-body or partial-body pat-down. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=CAIR] Instead of the pat-down, you can always request to pat down your own scarf, including head and neck area, and have the officers perform a chemical swipe of your hands. [/QUOTE] This troubling, especially since I can’t figure out what “in this scenario” is referring to. Of course, most Muslim women are not terrorists, but 'ya know… ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/91 "2010-11-17T00:22:39Z")
A friend of mine received this comment in a related topic on his Facebook page. It made me laugh: “I wonder what would happen if you were moaning for the entire length of the pat down” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/92 "2010-11-17T00:50:18Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > So this is strange. CAIR has released [this statement](http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=26681&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1) saying that Muslim women should refuse the scan, and includes these statements: > > This troubling, especially since I can’t figure out what “in this scenario” is referring to. Of course, most Muslim women are not terrorists, but 'ya know… And you’ll know that security is a complete joke if Muslim women are exempted from the pat-down and groin inspection on religious grounds. Especially since there have already been many examples of female Muslim terrorists. And if they aren’t exempted, this will be an affront to their religion, and will just build more anti-American sentiment among Muslims. This whole thing is counter-productive and foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/93 "2010-11-17T00:53:11Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > A friend of mine received this comment in a related topic on his Facebook page. It made me laugh: > > “I wonder what would happen if you were moaning for the entire length of the pat down” 1. You’d piss someone off and they’d send you into the back for a full cavity search. Probably while saying, “Still feel like moaning, asshole?” or, 1. You’d be arrested and charged with sexual harassment against the TSA agent doing the pat-down. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/94 "2010-11-17T00:56:10Z")
You mean the TSA agent who’s _twiddling my labia?_ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/95 "2010-11-17T01:10:03Z")
The argument would be that they are just doing their job, and you are sexualizing the situation and making them uncomfortable. I’m not a lawyer, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if you could be charged in this way. I’ll bet there are other charges they could bring against you as well. Never dick around with a federal security agent. Especially in an airport. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/96 "2010-11-17T01:43:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’ve had doctors do lots of things that are far more invasive than this airport screening. Unpleasant but I dealt with it. There’s little comparison here. You see a doctor when you choose to or when you have a health problem. You’re not forced to see him as a condition of traveling. Your doctor can’t have you arrested if you decide you don’t want him to do a particular test. And with luck you have some amount of personal and professional connection with your doctor (at least you know who he or she is and trust the degree on the wall). None of that applies to a TSA agent. It’s not even close. The fact that the traveler is essentially powerless in this situation and (rightly) has no confidence in this system is why people get so frustrated. I’m sure there are few or no frotteurs in the TSA. It’s not a job I’d want to do either. They did still choose to do it. > [@](#): > > Take a train, drive, take a bus or stay home. Does this end with “…and if you don’t like it, move to Russia?” Yes, the next time I have to travel several hundred miles or thousand miles in a short time, I could take another mode of transportation. But I shouldn’t have to choose between an 18-hour bus trip or drive or a humiliating and pointless ordeal at the airport. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/97 "2010-11-17T01:49:10Z")
Can’t find the link right now, but saw an interesting tactic proposed yesterday. Summarized in two words: [Utilikilt](http://www.utilikilts.com/) and Commando ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/98 "2010-11-17T01:56:40Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > Being a TSA screener is a great job for a homosexual - or worse, a pedophile! No real qualifications needed. Get paid money to have a groping good time at work - legally do what you normally can’t without being arrested. Okay, what the fuck is this? Gays are rapists, like pedophiles, and would love, as a group, to have jobs where we get to forcibly grope people? I can’t wait to hear this little nugget explained. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/99 "2010-11-17T03:04:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? I believe that the point is that, _ **by your own argument** _, the TSA people (having chosen to take and keep the job) have consented to the entire crapflood of contempt that is being upended upon them, and therefore need to suck it up with a smile. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/100 "2010-11-17T03:05:20Z")
What is so hard to understand? A gay guy gets paid $ to grab balls in public and we’re okay with that? Why not have coed screening if it’s not a problem then? I know most gay guy’s would be professional about it - find no sexual enjoyment etc., but so would most straight people in a similar coed situation. Its the perv’s who you got to worry about. Some gay people, some straight, some bi, some pedophiles. And the low entry barrier to becoming a TSA screener is going to have them applying in droves. Lots of pervs have no criminal records to catch - they have never acted on their feelings. But here is a freaking opportunity we’re giving them to legally do it - for pay. Bring on the pervs! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853.md?page=6)